¶1Hey everyone, welcome to the Council of Trent. Today my guest is Marco Royo. He is a minister with the Church of Christ. Uh so we actually have a lot in common theologically and also hobbywise. We're going to get into that later today.
¶2So um Marco came to my church recently, the parish that I that I attend and visited and got to come around and we talked, you know, a bit about Catholicism. So today I just wanted to chat with you about liturgy, Catholicism, your thoughts on that, especially just lurggical elements, architectural aesthetic elements, and then of course we got to talk about our jiu-jitsu role. [laughter] >> Yeah, let's hurry up to that last one. >> Oh, totally. I love whenever I I'll go to events.
¶3It's always so funny like people will be there and I'll be meeting like talking to people, maybe like signing a book, and then someone will come up to me and say, you know, I'm a purple belt in jiu-jitsu. And then I'll just talk to them for like 10 minutes. [laughter] the line starts pouring because I'm like, "Yeah, let's talk about it." And so, well, let's get a little bit of background. Why don't you tell our listeners a little bit more just about yourself and kind of, you know, what what you do? >> Well, I uh yeah, I have a YouTube channel called In between Sundays and I really I started off doing like devotional stuff and then it kind of changed into apologetic stuff because of people always asking me questions and it's a lot easier to go like copy and paste.
¶4You probably have this experience, too. Oh, totally. People asking you questions, you go, "Well, I got a video on that. go ahead and watch that and maybe we'll talk about it after or something. But >> you know what gets even better is when you get to the point you've written a book on it because people like I have a question about X and I'll just be like here's here well I'll just send I'll just send them a PDF of the book.
¶5>> Yeah. >> And it's been crazy actually. I've had people who are Protestant I have people who are atheists who emailed me saying you know hey I have a question about ex the existence of God and I really liked your debates and I just had a question. I said okay here's my book why we're Catholic. and then they email me a year later they're an atheist and a year later they're getting baptized they're coming into the church and all I had to do is just send them a book basically.
¶6>> Well, you know, a couple years ago before we did our first podcast um uh you you sent me that PDF copy. I ended up getting the audio book cuz I can listen to it better like on like jog or something like that. Yeah. >> And so when I think about that book, I think about myself jogging at the same time. But I really appreciated that.
¶7>> I do that all the time. So sometimes in my studies, you know, I'll read books, I've listened to audio books or I'll listen to debates that people have so I can study like I listen to a previous debate. >> So that happens to me too where I will listen, let's say it's a debate I heard maybe like seven years ago and I'll listen to it on my computer and I'll remember like oh I was on my bike in Phoenix and I had my and I'm like I'm right back there again. Yeah, I think the same thing. Whenever I reread like portions of your book, I'm thinking like I feel like I need to go jogging.
¶8It's like, you know, that episode of The Office where Jim like does the little bell sound and it make and he gives keeps giving Dwight the mint. Yeah. Yeah. >> Hand out. [laughter] >> So, okay.
¶9So, a little bit of your background for everyone. You're so you're a minister in the Church of Christ, but your your family is a Catholic background, right? >> Yeah. On my dad's side, it's it's largely Catholic. In fact, I was baptized Catholic as an infant.
¶10And uh some of my earliest memories are going to church uh Catholic uh mass and church with my grandparents and my uncle in Payic, New Jersey. Holy Trinity Roman Catholic Church. Shout out to [laughter] them in Pak, New Jersey. But I have very like fond memories of that time. I I also I think I did tell you about this one time.
¶11[snorts] >> I really have a Oh, man. I I this this even gets me emotional every time. A Catholic priest is largely responsible for why I'm even alive. Oh, wow. >> Yeah.
¶12My mother when she was pregnant with me was told that I'd have severe spinoipida and they uh at the time we were living in New Jersey they recommended driving to another state and have an abortion and um she was really troubled about that. She went for a long walk about it >> and then she saw a Catholic church was having mass and she walked in and the priest was speaking and he the the first thing she heard when she walked in was him saying God is the one who has the final say whether we live or die. Abortion is murder. Wow. >> And he was speaking against that just so happened to be.
¶13And so she after she left that and she prayed and she just said, "God, thank you so much that if this is the lot that I'm going to get with my son, thank you for letting me take care of him." >> And so she uh you know, she gave birth to me and I was healthy. >> But you didn't have spobifith. >> No, nothing at all. I mean, could you imagine how many times doctors have been wrong? Yeah.
¶14>> Oh, what a tragedy. >> But that that happens a lot that I mean, even someone a child who has a disability, they're still a human being and we we should treat them. And people will say to me, "What about a child who has a severe disability?" I might say, "Well, imagine a 2-year-old gets into an accident or gets sick. Then they have a disability." Like, if you wouldn't kill that 2-year-old, you shouldn't do that to an unborn child. So, that's like the main moral argument I make.
¶15But I often point out to people, look, >> this might not also be this is just doctors have an incentive >> to get it wrong with a a false diagnosis. Because for a lot of them, like if they fail to tell someone this child has Down syndrome or spinobipida and the child's born, then they can get sued for wrongful life, like a perverse thing to think about because what they'll say is if you had told me the baby had spinobipida, I would have gotten an abortion. Since you failed to tell me that, I'm going to sue you. So doctors are all worried they're going to get sued. >> Wow.
¶16>> And the thing is though, if they're wrong about the child having spobifer Down syndrome and the abortion happens anyways, no one finds out. Yeah. >> So for them it's all there's an incentive for them to make a false diagnosis to cover their behind. >> Wow. Gross man.
¶17The worst thing. >> But that's what I love though about like the collaborations that we've had. I mean in general conservative Protestants I love that you know when it comes to sexuality pro-life issues. >> We're solid like this. But also as as being a minister of the Church of Christ like we actually have a lot also in common like believing in like baptismal regeneration for example.
¶18That's a subject you cover a lot on your channel. I've been fortunate to be like ever since we've we've met and been talking like to be brought up by you here and there because like there's the one quadrant. There's this weird quadrant that you talk about sometimes. [laughter] >> I got to have that. >> It's like baptismal regeneration, no infant baptism.
¶19Like there's the weird guys in the corner over there in the Churches of Christ. [laughter] >> Well, that's what I always tell people. I I I even did this with uh Oh, I I went out to dinner with some friends and my wife poked fun a little because I made I when I was talking, I literally made a quadrant. But it's the idea that it's the Christian do on baptism. >> Real quick that developed because you used to go like this when we talked.
¶20Now you do >> now I just I just do this straight like [laughter] >> the quadrant crossfire. You'll be caught up in the crossfire. [laughter] Um so there's two questions basically. Does baptism spiritually regenerate? >> And should you baptize infants?
¶21>> And there's four ways to respond to that. So you could say, "Yeah, it re it regenerates and because of that we should baptize babies." So that would be Lutheran, Catholic, Orthodox. Then there are those who will say, uh, they'll say, "It does regenerate, but we should not baptize infants." That'd be the Church of Christ position. So that's not as common. Most people would say if you don't baptize infants, the reason you would say is because it doesn't um is is because it doesn't spiritually regenerate you.
¶22Mhm. >> And so that would be um you know like the uh some Presbyterians who you know who who would hold sorry critobaptists you you don't baptize babies because it doesn't spiritually regenerate. So that would be classic reformed Baptist tradition. Credto Baptist doesn't regenerate so don't baptize babies. But then you'll have Presbyterians and others who will say it doesn't regenerate.
¶23Doesn't spiritually regenerate you but it still makes you a member of the new covenant. >> It's a great sin not to. >> Yeah. And it's it is a sin. So there will be and they'll say you know it's in Westminster so you should do it even if it doesn't regenerate children should should still be brought in and so you were and so now you're my you're my token Church of Christ [laughter] person put in there.
¶24The only other person I ever familiar with Church of Christ was um my wife's grandfather. Uh so her family are converts. Uh so they they converted. She didn't she was raised in the church, but her family were converts and her grandfather was actually he was a theologian in the church of Christ. And I remember for I think it was for Christmas or her birthday.
¶25I found on eBay like an old because this is something he must have written like back in the early 1900s commentary in the book of Revelation. >> Wow. >> Signed by him with his uh his handwriting in it. So now I'm not going to be able to top that gift. So I don't know I can do I can do much better, you know.
¶26>> Yeah. No, I hope my wife isn't watching. That's really thoughtful. I I don't know if I've ever pulled out something that thoughtful, but >> Well, I was just wondering. I was just like, "Oh, I wonder where it is." Like, then I went and searched for it.
¶27So, yeah. So, we do have we do have these things these things in common. And so, I' I've you know, been on in between Sundays a few a few times on your show. So, people go check it out. I'll link to that below.
¶28Uh, and then we I although I first met you not through um YouTube or theology, it was because a mutual friend of ours who's Catholic, he was rolling at your gym. Yeah, we were doing like I've it there's like a morning crew at the gym where you know I was going to for a long time before I moved and it was like a group of like seven eight guys maybe and he's one of them and afterwards you I love the feeling of like you fight each other for like an hour and a half and you're just laying on the wall and you're just talking about stuff and then like eventually the word gets out that I'm a preacher >> pouring sweat and a lot of and when you do no gi a lot of the sweat is not yours. That's [laughter] the grossest part of it. >> Yeah. Sometimes a guy will like pull guard and noi and then like scoot back and it just draw you into his puddle, you know?
¶29It's the worst thing ever. >> I would just like I just tap. I just tap because it's so gross. >> It's the worst. But yeah, we'll sit down and then you know they find out that I'm a preacher.
¶30Like what do you do for a living kind of a thing and then we just start talking and then oh he's Catholic. We're talking Catholicism some differences and it was just Yeah. I love that guy so much. Our mutual friend. >> Yeah.
¶31So uh >> then he connected us. >> Yeah. So yeah Spencer our friend. So he was doing uh >> I'm not sure if we're going to do him or not. talks him.
¶32Oh no, people find out I'm a Catholic that does jiu-jitsu. >> Name's Spencer. [laughter] >> Totally. Uh, so then we um, so then he got us together and I came down. We, you know, we did, you know, did a little bit of rolling.
¶33I actually enjoyed that class. I wanted to pick up a little bit Tuesday, Thursdays cuz I had a Monday, Wednesday, Friday, >> but I went for a few months, >> but that 6 a.m. was killing me. >> Yeah, >> I go to the 9:00 a.m. now at my gym and I I it's a perfect time because, you know, I work from an office remote, so I have the flexibility, but like getting up at like 5:15 driving there in the dark >> going to roll.
¶34And that was the old gym where it had that big gap in the door. So like if it was like 30 degrees outside when you when you'd go in and you're trying to get started. >> Yeah. >> And then also your gym though is awesome because like we're kind of the older middle-aged guys just kind of like roll around and have fun. It's like you're drilling for an hour.
¶35It's like oh it's like you go to some gyms people are having fun. Other gyms like I am preparing you for World League. >> [laughter] >> And I'm like, >> they really belabor the point there. >> I'm just here to like not gain weight and eat and try to live to be 60. >> That's not I'm here for.
¶36>> No, I I loved when I told David that David Evers, a black belt there at at Flex MMA. When I told him I was like, this is the longest class I think I like my friends ever been to and he thought that was the funniest thing cuz that was one of his shorter classes. >> Oh my goodness. Yeah, totally. So, let's talk a little bit about the the visit you had recently.
¶37So you came to my parish just to see like the aesthetics to uh to go to mass. What were some things you kind of just took away from that? >> Well, it was interesting because I remember as a child, you know, I going to Catholic church, you know, the church there in Paic, New Jersey, um much smaller and the community is just very different over there, but much smaller. And so, you know, my memories were, you know, like in Catholic church thinking, you know, I don't know when to kneel and stuff. It was in Spanish over there as well, you know, at the time.
¶38My grandparents would speak to me in Spanish, but I wasn't really that good at speaking it because they wanted to learn English, that kind of a thing. And [snorts] so, I remember just kind of not knowing what to do kind of a thing. Uh, you know, wooden pews, no cushions, you know. Yeah, >> it's a real deal. >> Yes.
¶39Almost a deal breaker, you know. Um, >> doc senor. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> So, I remember like >> I know enough Spanish to sing the bad songs. [laughter] Buenos Senor.
¶40[laughter] >> Yeah. Uh I remember like walking in with you uh and kind [snorts] of some of that stuff came back a little bit where like the first time I ever visited the Church of Christ, I remember thinking this kind of reminds me of the Catholic Church. >> Oh, really? >> Like when I was a kid, I'd kind of be bored. >> And I remember walking into the Church of Christ thinking, well, I'm in, you know, I'm like 17 now.
¶41>> I'm not bored, but I could be bored here like very much more easily than when I used to go to like a charismatic Pentecostal church. I played in the band at like Charismatic Pentecostal Church in my teen years. >> Um so walking in with you, I I remembered all that stuff, but I was so like like I recently visited um like an Eastern Orthodox Cathedral and I'm kind of glad that I did that before going uh to mass with you because I [snorts] kind of like forgotten how much I love the beautiful. Like I love a great building. I love a great building.
¶42I love great architecture. I love the art. like, oh man, I just there's a feeling that you get when you walk into a beautiful building. Um, especially one though that has imagery [snorts] in it of what you love the most, which is Jesus Christ and and and the word of God and everything that you read in the Bible. Um, there's something I I can't really put a a finger on what that feeling is, but that feeling that I got walking in.
¶43I I love that. I love thinking about Jesus. And then I love being able to experience it with a different sense. You know, >> if I had to describe it, like I deal with a lot of now that I'm in middle age and midlife crisis mode. I kind of have a lot of nostalgia for like the '9s and early 2000s before social media, before technology, uh things when you were young.
¶44And I think a lot of people feel that way when they go back to their when you're young. So nostalgia comes from its etmology means like um like homesick or sick, you know, sick for home times. In fact, in the Russian army, you could be executed for it was considered a debilitating illness that would like spread throughout the other soldiers and destroy morale. But I think that when church architecture is done really well, it captures a timeless quality that sort of hones in on that inner desire for nostalgia that I think if you're a Christian, if you think about it, like Philippians says that our our citizenship is in heaven, that our, you know, that's our true home. And so when music and architecture is done really well to get us focused on that, I feel like it's it's almost like a sense of nostalgia in the sense it's like, "Oh, I've identified home." >> And it gives you that warmth and that reassurance versus I was I was actually just looking on social media today.
¶45There was a church, I think it's a church in Oklahoma, a Protestant church that decorated the entire foyer based on Toy Story 4 for their sermon. And it's like that's like the exact opposite [laughter] feeling you would have versus when you go to an east a cathedral just any cathedral including Protestant ones that are done well. They're not all smoke machines and to store there they're and I've covered this in previous episodes when it's done well with that timeless quality. Yeah. >> It kind of hits you.
¶46>> No. One thing I thought when I because I hadn't been to like a like a cathedral or like a Catholic like church in a long time until I went to that Eastern Orthodox uh cathedral and I I what I said my initial thought cuz I did a video on it was like I felt like I was standing in a Bible in a way like like a like a child's like Bible with just a bunch of pictures on it. I felt like I was in the Bible in a certain sense cuz it was just surrounding me >> with all the icons. >> Yes. Yes.
¶47With all the icons and stuff. It just felt like I was in a Bible. And that's kind of the same feeling here where like, you know, sometimes in like in a in a worship setting, you might tune out a little bit and look around and kind of just stare at the wall. Well, here you're staring at like Jesus, his transfiguration or something, you know, like it just snaps you back in a little bit. Like the church where I minister, >> we do have a lot of art like in the hallways and like when you walk in and stuff.
¶48We have some artists there that have painted over the years and I just I love that stuff. Again, that was the first thing that stuck out to me that like just something about that is so centering, so grounding, and um again, it's hard to put words on it. I think nostalgia is a really good thing. I hadn't thought about that. >> Yeah, I think what I would just encourage other Protestants, I know a lot of this came out of the Reformation, the aniconism, just the the concern about images, and that deals with, you know, the different theological views about seeking the intercession of the saints.
¶49And there were elements within the church that had superstitious attachments to to saints or images. I mean although you can have superstition about anything. Even in the early church fathers, you had some fathers saying that if you just have a copy of the gospel in your home, demons won't come there. Or people would carry these um amulets. There used to be pagan amulets with spells in them.
¶50And they would take out the spells and put a Bible verse in them. >> And there were church fathers saying like that's a little dicey. Have you seen the videos of the guys putting a Bible in the concrete of the foundation of their home? I just saw this the other day. >> Yeah, he's with There we go.
¶51[laughter] That's going to be the one thing where it loses structural stability cuz there's an empty void as the pages collapse over time. >> But so you could have superstition over anything. So I understand there were legitimate things that had to be reformed. But then going full into the other direction of not having >> any images at all. I think it's been a tragedy.
¶52My favorite thing was when I went to Geneva with my wife in Switzerland. uh you know you go to when I compare Geneva and Rome uh I don't know if you've ever been to either city. So Rome, it's an it is an ugly city with beautiful churches. >> I felt it was kind of dirty. It's not the prettiest city out there.
¶53I mean, it's not horrible, right? There's worse cities, but the interior of the church is there best. The exterior of the city, hands down. Uh when you go to Geneva, Switzerland, the heart of the Protestant Reformation, the exterior is absolutely gorgeous. You know, you have Lake Geneva, the mountains, the Alps, the Chateau, but then you go inside the churches and there's nothing.
¶54M >> it's just these stone walls and we walked and at the front there was this rickety wooden chair and they're like that was Calvin's chair that he would preach from. So there's nothing fancy about it at all. And in Geneva there is a stat but there there are four stone statues of the reformers. >> I know. I know.
¶55I know. They're probably like turning in their [laughter] graves. They're like no not even like the originals you know not even like you know like not original reformers but not even like Jesus or apostles or because it's a city of the reformation. So, it's one of the tourist uh attractions there is these stone statues >> of the reformers >> becoming the very thing [laughter] they probably they probably protested. But yeah, I I just hope that any church >> could restore cuz when you went around our church, you seem to like that we had like stained glass windows for almost everything.
¶56>> Yeah. Yeah. and and you know the the church building where I'm at, we we have we originally had stained glass windows and they did this big expansion and then sadly like they took them down, but we have one that one of our uh shepherds there restored and it's like right behind where I preach or where everyone goes up and again I just love that stuff and oh man there's something about that I um I again I can't put my finger on it but I love so much because you know being part of like a because we talk about like beauty and stuff when I was part of an evangelical charismatic church. That version of beauty was more like these lights are sick, you know, or like the smoke machine is killing it tonight. Like it's like floating at just the right level and like >> Well, I mean, it is like a trying to make a really cool concert venue.
¶57>> Yeah. Yeah. It It's ironic how similar it is. Oh, yeah. And it's almost indistinguishable to like someone if if you put it on mute, it'd be really hard to know which is which.
¶58>> Well, I did an episode recently on what's really wrong with modern worship songs. I loved it. I loved you like singing along to it. >> Oh, totally. But but the thing is like I'm telling you, so I went and saw Journey a few months ago.
¶59I was part of their final farewell tour >> and it it felt like being back at one of those things cuz you because it's like it's music you're really emotionally attached to and Journey especially has that great it has a melodramatic element to it that is similar to contemporary worship songs. I'm here with open arms. Oh, that she's you know more mean to me. Open arms burning. It's like really like contemporary Christian chord progressions too as a musician.
¶60Really similar. It's fascinating. >> I mean, one of the songs is Don't Stop Believing. You [laughter] can literally turn that into a worship song. >> So, but it it felt really similar, but it's like I think a lot of people see that though, but then when they go to a service, when they can go to a service, it feels like it's not pandering.
¶61It's not trying to catch the current thing. It's like we've had this for 2,000 years. We don't have to we don't have to do more. >> That's it. Because like you know I left that evangelical church and went to the church of Christ and one thing that stood out to me too that that is very similar about us is that >> both have a great sense of like they almost make you feel like this church I don't want to say this the wrong way I think you'll know what I mean like this church >> doesn't the message is not like we need you to be here it's you need to be here >> and like when I was in like charismatic Pentecostal stuff it was more like what can we do to like make you want to be here and these are like no we're here and like we've been here, we're always going to be here.
¶62You need to be here is the idea. So there is not like the pandering because you're supposed to be here, you know? Does that make sense? Like >> Yeah. This and that's how I felt.
¶63I remember during my conversion experience in high school. I've told the story a lot that I I went to some Protestant churches and they overwhelmed me with everyone coming to talk to me. And I'm saying I think they were being legitimately nice, but it felt like they were trying to like >> reel me in like a customer like at a used car lot or something. I'm not saying every church is like this and I think they were sincere, but I'm introverted and I was like, but then when I go to the Catholic parish, it's not so much like we're trying to get everybody. We're we're trying to get you.
¶64It's like, well, you should be here. >> Yeah. >> You should you should be here. We are here and you should be here. >> Yeah.
¶65Evangelism is a thing of course and and it's deeply important but it's there's a big difference uh between what can I do to make you love it here between what can I do to make you love what the church is you know like how can I structure things >> versus how can I help you see you should love this >> yes like how can we structure stuff to make people love it here is like the the heart behind church at the movies like there's a mega church I just saw a thing with this where like they have everyone in the in the auditorium or whatever like open up their can of coke at at the same time. I don't know if you saw this video. It's like 2,000 people going >> like during the church service at the same time. I I was even I got an advertisement for this. I saw the comments and one of like the members at this mega church was like, "I can't wait for the moment when we all open up a can of Coke at the same time like during the Sunday worship and it was like Yeah.
¶66church at the movies or something like that and they >> this this is the kind of thing that makes people stay home." >> Yeah. Because it's like, and this is what I talked with Michael Bagano about when we'd had our dialogue recently, that the problem is if you're going to church to to be inspired, if that's the main reason you go is to hear a blockbuster sermon, there's a million of those on YouTube. >> It's like if that's or just to have this experience, you can have all kinds of experiences, but it has to be something deeper. I I think one thing though for architecture I really wish Protestants would reconsider though would be the presence of the crucifix. And I think that was, you know, one way Protestantism wanted to distinguish itself from Catholicism was, you know, they have a different view about the Lord's supper, the Eucharist, not viewing the Eucharist as a as a propitiatory sacrifice that's offered to the father.
¶67And so there was that concern of wanting to distinguish and say, well, no, we don't have the same view of mass. Our services are different. How do we show that? Because we would say that Christ's one sacrifice on the cross is represented to the father on the altar. And so having the crucifix there is a visual image that that's what is here that is being represented the [snorts] lamb who is slain that we are now able to receive his body and blood.
¶68But I think a lot of pro well we want to distinguish from that. So they they keep the cross but remove the corpus. >> Yeah. >> And so while I I agree that the cross is a good symbol. The cross has been a symbol for 2,000 years in Christian history.
¶69You find it in catacombs. It's you know it is a good symbol. What's hard for me is though is that it's it's kind of an ambiguous symbol, right? Because if Jesus was a failure if he was like a fraud, then he would be crucified, buried, decomposed, that cross would still be up there. Like the cross itself is not the punchy visual symbol of like what has happened.
¶70I can even see like an empty tomb being a better symbol if that's what you want to focus on. But the crucifix, it's like, "Oh, th here is our Lord on Good Friday and this is the moment when this when all of the sins of the world are forgiven and humanity is atoned for. This is the moment we should always have in the forefront of our minds when we're, you know, living our Christian lives and we're what does it mean to be Christian?" It's like this this moment, you know, is so important. >> Yeah. Have you ever heard people go I've heard people say this over the years like, "Oh, you know, uh they have, you know, Jesus on the cross.
¶71Jesus isn't on the cross anymore. He's resurrected. Have you ever heard that before? >> Yeah. Well, well, that that cross isn't up anymore.
¶72That thing fell [laughter] that thing, you know, was taken down 2,000 years ago. >> It was one I've heard that before so many times and never really [laughter] it doesn't make sense to me. >> Yeah. But that's which of course we should celebrate the risen Christ. I mean, that's why I love in the Eastern Catholic churches, you know, saying, uh, he is, you know, every Easter season, he is risen.
¶73Indeed, he is risen. Like, of course, and we we celebrate that. We c every every Sunday in the Catholic church is is basically a mini Easter is how we can it was to celebrate it. But that idea Oh, I remember so a long time ago I did a one of my very first YouTube videos there was a guy he did a rap video called why I love Jesus but hate religion. It's like an old I was like from oh gosh it was like in the 2010s and then I'm I don't >> real brave stuff.
¶74Totally. >> That's the coexist of like Christianity kind of thing. the worst. >> Relationship, not religion, that kind of a thing. >> I think it's on the channel.
¶75I should actually go check. I don't know if I took it down if I was embarrassed. Hopefully, it's still there. Maybe I'll re-release it. But I did my own counter wrap [laughter] to it.
¶76>> I hope it's still up. >> I'm going to see. And then maybe we'll we'll show the B-roll and have the have the link here if it's still there. If it's not there, maybe I'll maybe I'll bring it back. But and I filmed it in my like my bedroom at my parents' house and there was a crucifix behind me and one of the comments under was like take down that crucifix.
¶77Jesus isn't on the cross anymore. Yeah, he's not. But I mean, think about like when Paul was writing his letters like he's saying like if the only thing I will boast and I'll boast of, you know, of the cross and he talks about the theology of the cross. So somebody was like that cross has been taken down 20 years ago. >> Or like Philippians 3 as well like where he says these people are enemies of the cross of Christ.
¶78Like he uses that imagery on purpose and doesn't just say they're enemies of what Jesus did on a cross but he says they're enemies of the cross. Like that is representative of of something really powerful. >> Or um Galatians I want to make sure I get this right. There's there's a verse where Paul says um who has who has scripture. It is.
¶79He said, "Who who has bewitched you? For we did we not preach Christ crucified to you?" >> Well, I'm I'm going to get you. I want to say Galatians 3 >> 1. Galatians 3:1. >> Okay, it's still up there.
¶80I am slowly losing my my grip on trying to try I'm trying to do my best as uh to model for Protestants. Like, yeah, you should have everything memorized. You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly exhibited as crucified. So it's interesting.
¶81It's like, well, what does that mean exactly? It doesn't mean that everybody who was there in Galatia, which is written like 20 years later, was at Jesus's crucifixion. They probably weren't. But is the idea that >> he you went to another gospel even though we presented Christ crucified to you, >> you know, you've been you've been you have to be put under a spell to go away from that. So, it's like I just hope I hope there's a way that we can bring that imagery and other imagery back at least like you know into the space >> like church history.
¶82I'm I'm kind of I'm I'm still a big novice in it, but so much of it seems to be like something happens and then overcorrection and then like an overcorrection like like like with Luther seems to be a good example of this. um as little as I know about this, but like this one thing that like we point out sometimes of like there's [snorts] a bit of an overcorrection from like you know in in the Catholic church you baptism regenerates to now like again there there's there's there's a complication to this but yeah the idea of works and faith and now what comes out of the re reformation so like there's just it seems so much of the time like how about we just don't go >> well that's what you well that's what you deal with when you're saying we're justified by faith alone then someone comes to you and says amen we're justified by faith alone there's thing we do to be saved. You don't even have to be baptized. You're like, "Wait, whoa, >> wait a minute. >> Stop the train." >> Yeah.
¶83But but you see that that and that's the the problem is that and the Catholic Church dealt with this and saying in the counterreformation at the Council of Trent, "Yes, here are these things or abuses. Here are theological doctrines that need to be clarified on both sides. People are getting it wrong." >> And there's just like this yo-yo effect where it's like overcorrect, need to come back, then it overcorrects again. >> Yeah. >> Honestly, that's almost like human nature.
¶84It's like one guy tries to blow up a plane with his shoe, then for 20 years we have to take off our shoes at the airport. Even though like eventually it's like, "Oh, this doesn't really do anything." And there's no point to this anymore. >> They just changed that, too. America's back. >> Finally, >> we're back.
¶85We finally recovered. >> You get [laughter] Finally, you get to keep your shoes on. >> Yeah. After 25 years, we're back. >> Oh my goodness.
¶86[laughter] If only we could keep the ball rolling. Uh so then you But then you also attended a daily mass with me. What were some things you took away from that attending? Um, again, like I love that we sat so close to the front, by the way. Beautiful place.
¶87>> It's okay. That that that in the Catholic church that's always open. >> Oh, really? [laughter] >> At the front. It's the back views to get taken up.
¶88>> Yeah. Um, I loved, you know, we we typically have like a a baptismal font in our building and stuff. I I want to ask you about this. You You all had two of them. You had like a a like like a taller one that was like a little like a like a bowl or not a bowl, but you know what I mean?
¶89Like a bird bath. And then the other one, was it like cross shaped? Bird bath is good. Was it like cross shaped or like a T-shaped? >> I think it might I think it might be shaped like a cross.
¶90I'm seeing it in my mind. >> Is that for immersions? Do people get immersed in those? >> No. Well, not immersed usually, but um this is so sad actually.
¶91It's my own parish. The the adult baptisms typically occur at the Easter Vigil. >> Yeah. >> And I have not been to an Easter vigil in many many years. The last time I went to an Easter vigil was probably I've been I go to Easter Sunday.
¶92>> Yeah. >> Well, the Easter v I love Easter. Well, I mean I was baptized. >> Easter at night or something. >> Yes.
¶93So, it is um I I mean is one of the most solemn uh liturgies throughout the year because the Easter vigil is traditionally where new converts are brought into the church long like three hours long. We'll go through readings all through salvation history. uh will light the uh the fire to symbolize the light of Christ at the very beginning. And going through all of all of the readings to salvation, like seven or eight of them uh and then there will be the point where people are baptized or if you already were baptized, you'll be confirmed, brought into the church. But if you're a catechum, if someone's never been baptized, >> then you receive baptism.
¶94And that's what I received when I was 17. And then I received it by pouring. Mhm. >> Uh, and I assume this I mean this is the same thing probably at at our parish. I wish I had been I haven't been in a long time.
¶95Ever since having little kids though usually starts at like 8:00. So it's not done till like 11. >> Yeah. >> So it's like now some people they're just champs. They will take their kids to midnight mass.
¶96>> They sleep on their blankie till 2:00 a.m. >> No kid. >> I don't think my kids will Yeah. [laughter] My kids at home in the most comfortable place in the world right after 8:00 p.m. If you blink too many times they're up.
¶97>> Pure meltdown. Like Yes. Totally. So, so I so I would love to get back to the Easter vigil um at at some point. Now we've just been at you know sunrise Easter morning.
¶98>> It seemed a little shallow in there. >> Yeah. So you would So the adults So the taller font you're referring to would be where infants are baptized. So for you know infants you know wait till Easter vigil baptize them as soon as possible and then they're brought in and it's poured over them and the baby is held over the over the font. Uh now they can be immersed.
¶99Uh we've been to baptisms in Eastern Catholic churches where there's you dump you dump the whole baby in, man. You dump them in and pull them right back out. And so they they do the full So you can do sprinkle, you can do pour with the baby or you you can do full immersion. Uh and then for adults, I'm not aware of Catholic churches that do there may be some that do full immersion with adults. Catechism talks about that, I think, being the most fitting form, but it's still permissible in the other forms because God wants everyone to be baptized.
¶100Even if you're in the desert and you only have a cup of water, you can baptize somebody. >> The catechism says it's the most fitting form. >> Oh, I not that it's the most fitting. I I believe I'm going to have to go back. I'm going to add like an edit here with that.
¶101I am I believe that there is something in there talking about something special related to immersion. >> Interesting. versus the other forms, but that they're all they're all valid forms. Um >> because a dedicate is what says it's like it's preferable if you can do it, but if you >> Yeah. It talks about gradations of of preferability if you have running water, living water versus unliving water, running or unrunning.
¶102So it goes uh so for adults though like Easter vigil, you would stand in the shallow pool and the water would be poured over you and you're standing in this pool where you're receiving baptism. >> Interesting. >> And so and so that would be the reason behind the behind the two fonts. >> Yeah. Yeah.
¶103How fascinating. I Yeah, I wonder about this because again, we just have one and we don't have a little one for babies in Churches of Christ, but um I'm always curious about that because I uh I did see like an Eastern Orthodox uh baptism um on Lazarus Saturday and their calendar is different, but do you guys have a Lazarus Saturday in >> Lazarus Saturday? >> Yeah, it's like the the when the Saturday that Jesus raised Lazarus, you know, they're like one week before with their calendar. Um, >> yeah, because it's like they have Palm Sunday a week before us, >> which I was at the tomb of Jesus for Easter once >> and the Orthodox were in front of the tomb. It was us and the Latin patriarch celebrating Easter.
¶104Behind the tomb were the Orthodox celebrating Palm Sunday. And when the patriarch got up to give the homaly, they shouted and jeered and rang bells and he couldn't speak and he was just like, [laughter] >> "That's Catholics and Orthodox. We're brothers always fighting." Yeah. No, but um that one I am not as familiar with though. I'm going to get you writing in.
¶105>> Unfortunately, Catholic trivia is not my uh is not my hot point. I gave up on that a long time ago to think, "Oh, maybe I could get it all so I can match Tim Staples and Jimmy Aken." Well, >> that's one thing. It's a massive amount of stuff to know. Like just in terms of the the workings of it all, the dates, the the calendars, it's it's unreal. Me trying to dive into this stuff, it just seems like uh almost bottomless in a sense.
¶106As a convert, and I think other Catholic converts feel this way, you could study your whole life and there's still a prayer you won't know that a cradle Catholic knows cuz their grandmother told them when they were five. >> Yeah. >> And it's just like, oh yeah, you know about. So yeah, you're right. There is a lot of rich elements to it.
¶107Uh but I would always caution people like no, you don't have to be an expert in something before you recognize the truth, goodness, and beauty that's that's present there. Yeah. >> So was there anything else? So So there's the architecture. or was there anything else like in the the service itself that kind of stood out to you?
¶108>> Well, uh you guys started off with like a I I don't know what to call it. Uh I don't know what they called it, but it was like uh through my fault, >> the penitential, right? >> Okay. So, is that like to to get your your like to repent before we begin to offer worship to God or try to get ourselves right with it? >> Yeah.
¶109So, so that's to um you know, seek out just the the general forgiveness of sins, the general sense of repentance, not the same thing as going to the sacrament of confession where if you're in a state of mortal sin, you would go to that sacrament Christ instituted through the apostles in John 20:23 to be fully reconciled with Christ and his church. But we all, as James 3:2 says, we all stumble in many ways. And so just as the dedicay says, you know, to make make peace with your brother, your brethren before approaching the altar, uh this something that we do to understand like, okay, we're turning away from any sins that might be distracting us from the Lord so that we can focus on his presence here on the altar that we're about to receive in word and sacrament. >> Okay. So, uh it's like a is it more of a repentance thing or like just like a focusing thing or both of them?
¶110Uh because like if someone I guess would that be like for someone that doesn't have mortal sin but does maybe just have general venial sin. >> Oh yeah. Because receiving the Eucharist itself remits venial sin. >> So it's it's a way of turning away from that and turning towards Christ in the liturgy of setting those things behind us so that we're able to focus on receiving him. That's what it seemed like that's why I was kind of guessing it was like you know how like you know in 1 Corinthians 11 there's so much about discerning the Lord's body and not eating and drinking judgment to yourself like examining yourself is that is that kind of hard >> through my fault through my most grievous fault and we ask also my brothers and sisters >> both in heaven and around us >> to pray for me the Lord our God that we as Galatians says we're to carry one another's burdens.
¶111Yeah. >> And you know it doesn't mean we're just going to carry your brethren's log to go build his house. The most important burdens we can carry for each other are the spiritual burdens. And of course, we in our mere human nature cannot do that. But if we are united to Christ in virtue of our baptism, he is the vine, we are the branches.
¶112We're also connected to the other branches. >> The body of Christ, the only way that the foot can do something about the hand, you know, 1 Corinthians 12 and all that is because Christ connects all the different body parts. So in being united to Christ then we can offer prayers for each other which any kind of spiritual burdens issues that trials people are going through including asking for mercy for others and you know to repent from sin or repent from whatever they're dealing with. >> Yeah. That's one thing I think I kind of big picture on this that I've loved is the intentionality of like liturgy.
¶113Yeah. >> Um where it's like this is exactly what we're going to do and for each thing there's a reason for it. Um, again like to contrast that with like the charismatic kind of there were times where like going to church like um growing up is it all my dad's side's Catholic then my mom's side is like this evangelical uh charismatic kind of stuff. >> Yeah. Yeah.
¶114>> Um and there were some Sundays where like just the feeling like the pastor would get a feeling and be like you know what today we're just singing. >> And like it's like after song number two he's like there's something going on right now. It just feels right. We're just going to sing. >> Oh boy.
¶115>> And that's just all we would do. It' be like an hour, hour and a half and [laughter] and then he's like, you know, >> he's moved by the spirit. >> Yeah. I mean, if I had the power to do that, like at the church where I'm at, which I don't, and like I'm not saying he did this, but like maybe I didn't like prepare a good like sermon or something. I'd be like, "You know what?
¶116Something feels right." >> That's [laughter] like a That's literally like a teacher when you're in elementary school, you walk in and they're like, "Today we're watching a movie." You guys have been so good lately >> because I was up really late last night at the bars or something. Teacher puts on sunglasses. >> [laughter] >> It's funny if we look back we probably like when we like in elementary school if we had just like a derelict teacher we don't like now as an adult we play like they were drunk now we're just like they were we were kids like they're goofy >> you the things you don't catch them weird today >> but that is oh my goodness yeah that is and that's something that I appreciate within Catholicism and other highurch Protestant traditions understanding that the the liturgy is something that does like for a pastor the liturgy doesn't belong to you and priest told this. It's like the mass doesn't belong to you. You stand in the person of Christ to serve the the flock that has been entrusted to you.
¶117Yeah. >> And so that's why you're you're given the rubrics. There's the general instruction of the Roman missile. What what is it? I'm I always reverse the two.
¶118I think it's say the red, do the black. I'm pretty sure that's it. And people are going to comment say the black, do the red. I'm pretty say the red, do the black. As in you read the book, >> just say the words that are in red.
¶119do the things in black and you can't mess it up. Just just do that and you'll be fine. But it's always sad when I think any kind of a pastor thinks, "Oh, well, it's it's mine." Yes. >> And so I need to make all of this and do all this to and it's it's not. >> Yeah.
¶120And and again, you know, my channel because it's largely reaction stuff. You I see so many videos and there was one where this guy was like this pastor going, "The great thing about planting your own church is that you can do whatever you" And he like said it a [laughter] different way. He said the quiet part out loud. >> Oops. >> Yeah, you could see him stop his be like, you know, you can just really plan things out.
¶121[laughter] Yeah, I don't remember how he fixed it, but he was going to say that. And again, like this is what was so cool to me and why I have such an appreciation for like the high churches for like Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, is because because they're not like trying to be like modern. >> Yeah. >> And they're trying to keep like a historical route. It's a it's a hilarious kind of like an overlap where like we [snorts] um are trying to just do like with like the original church did where where it's so clear that like there's none all this modern stuff that happens in like evangelical churches for and I don't want to just harp on I want to be respectful.
¶122I'm not trying to be like it's just a good comparison. I know they probably don't see like that as much of an issue, but um all of that stuff is just so clearly foreign to like how things worked in the first century and even beyond that in in the coming centuries >> where again it's not for us to like mess with all this stuff in terms of how worship is supposed to go and all of that. [snorts] And so, um, I appreciate the again like the the pursuit of originality and like in in a changing world, this is a timeless thing about how God set up his church and we're going to trust that even when the winds are blowing in different directions throughout the coming centuries, you know. >> Was there anything though in attending a Catholic service that you don't prefer as much to say maybe like a Protestant service? I think maybe we might have been talking a little bit about homalies versus sermons.
¶123Yeah. I don't know if that that's something that's come up. >> It's kind of funny. I'm a preacher, but I prefer I would prefer I would very much like it if uh homalies or you know sermons I would call them are shorter and given to me. >> We call them we call them sermons when they go on longer than seven minutes.
¶124[laughter] >> The one that Yeah. The one of that morning I remember was right around seven minutes or so which was great. Like especially I think if you know that it's going to be that long, you're locked in way harder than the guy who goes, "All right, Marco's getting up again. It's going to be 30 minutes. Like, let's get comfortable." You know what I mean?
¶125And now's [snorts] a good moment while he's like giving a greeting to think about where we're going to go for lunch or something. Like I can see that stuff happening sometimes. And >> [snorts] >> um one thing that I talk about a lot is like how obviously central >> the the Lord's Supper or the Eucharist is in the worship of the church. It it it gets a description to it in terms [snorts] of like the meaning of it, the impact of it, the significance of it. >> It it [snorts] gets an explaining that the other things that we do like praying and singing don't get.
¶126>> Yeah. >> Uh in the New Testament, which should stand out and and it also like it has its obvious root in like the liberation in Exodus 12, the Passover and it's it's all over the place like the the shadows of it. Yes. >> And so it's so obviously central. Acts 20:7, the disciples came together to break bread, right?
¶127>> So, I don't like either, >> and you know, the church where I'm at, we really [snorts] strive to be intentional about this, the whole like we get together because like this awesome preacher is going to preach. >> Yeah. >> And like you said, we can get awesome guys saying stuff all the time, like stuff that's motivational. >> And so, that's one thing that I loved that not because I don't like when people preach or teach. Yeah.
¶128>> But I love that like that just has its place. >> Yeah. Yeah, >> the homaly has its place, but we're here to break bread. You know, >> I do think though for me, I have found most homalies that that I have heard um I I think it's just a problem for many Catholics would say that they they can feel just not very memorable. um that that there's a very similar theme for a lot of them of just being like, you know, just continue to live out like focusing more on how to live out Christian virtue in life, which is a good thing, but diving into more theological concepts to help people understand like what does it mean we're justified?
¶129What does it mean we're sanctified? I think Protestants will spend more time that are really breaking into scripture. And I do wish there were Catholic, you know, Catholic priests could focus on that more. Yeah, it's hard. I I don't want to knock too much.
¶130I think one of the difficulties and I guess if I was pope, if I I should do an episode called If I Were Pope, [laughter] I would have proprio and canon law that made it very clear that the homaly at daily mass is optional. That way, a priest didn't always feel like he had to have a homaly every single day because priests offer mass every day. >> Yeah. >> Uh just imagine if you had to write a sermon every day. It's just like along with also and that's why I think a lot of priests where it's an unfair comparison for some Protestant pastors they could spend like 20 hours that week >> on the Sunday sermon but for a lot of Catholic priests it's like they have a daily mass every day which may include a homaly every day uh they have to oversee an elementary school that has like hundreds of families they have to go and deliver sacraments to the sick to the dying they have a huge uh staff sometimes a huge staff if it's a large parish to manage and coordinate uh other ministries, outreach ministries dealing with helping the poor.
¶131And there's so many things on their plate. The homaly itself, you just can't devote as much time as maybe other Protestant pastors, but it but it is so important and and I think it can be done well even in just like seven minutes. >> How interesting. It is a balancing act, I guess. Because there's like a limit to what you can do in that amount of time that you may want to be able to do.
¶132I remember it was some years back but I remember Pope Francis was talking about homaly length and he was he was speaking Italian he was like there's these guys and he's like 20 minutes 30 minutes he's like come on guys let's not go like let's not go super crazy and I remember [snorts] actually again having a real appreciation for that but I had thought about the fact that like yeah there is a limiting thing because there have been times where I've explained some >> kind of like complicated things in lessons I've given where I'll even tell the people straight up go hey this one's in 40 minutes. This we need to talk about this though. So, this one's going to go up. >> Yeah. I think that one of the other things though that I feel like Yeah.
¶133It's important there could be more lengthy periods to to teach these more in in-depth theological topics. But I worry sometimes about the Sunday service losing its focus on the Eucharist. >> Yeah. >> And essentially becoming Sunday school for adults. And so I worry that if the Sunday service is viewed as because I I think I saw on X somebody a Protestant was talking about Catholic homalies and said I could never go to a Catholic church like that.
¶134Like he said my pastor spent an hour completely breaking down the book of Nehemiah for us. Like how could I get that in a homaly? And I'm thinking I bet you've got all of the kids under the age of 10 off in the daycare right now while you spend an hour on the book of Nehemiah. And [clears throat] so for and there are Catholic churches that do have this, but I'm very big into bring all the kids in. >> Yeah.
¶135>> Bring them all in. Bring everyone into worship. And there is a way to incorporate the entire uh community, the entire family of God and parish into worshiping the Lord. And the youngest children should be there for that and not think, oh, I finally get to come when I'm good. >> Yeah, >> you have been good the second you were baptized here.
¶136>> So that's so I think there may be maybe there can be elements or if the priest time were freed up. Oh, the other mode proprio I'd want the priest to do RCIA. I have I don't know how many horror stories I've now it's called OCIA uh for initiation of Christian adults where people who wanted to become Catholic go to an RCIA class run by people who actually don't know the faith >> and they get driven away and it's just done horrible. Like I wish just know the priest is the one who hosts these but they you know they've got a million things to do but maybe that there's a way to have like adult education classes on a Wednesday night where it's like hey 7 minutes this is our preview here in the homaly Wednesday night though we're going to do an hour with Q&A we're going to lock everything in. Yeah.
¶137>> And come and we'll have child care and we'll have you know so that it's it's separated. So it's like liturgy is not doesn't become identical with just um catechesus or education. There's an element of kateesus and liturgy but liturgy is the work lit the word liturgy comes from leurgos means the work of the people. >> Yeah. So I worry that it becomes if liturgy is viewed passively as this is for me to get this versus oh it's for us to work together to praise and glor to praise and glorify God.
¶138Yeah. >> Yeah. We we are big uh where I'm at too of like and largely from my experience in churches of Christ in not having like a some people call them like children's Bible hour or something like this like every so often someone will like who's having usually someone who's having a hard time with like their child or maybe their grandchild will go like we should probably have something like this and uh the response is always like that would be nice like it would be nice for me yeah I've got a three-year-old a 2-year-old and a six-month-old. >> Oh wow. It'd be very nice for me to have that, but it would be far better if if they grew up in every single one of these.
¶139Yeah. You know, it'd be far better if they were with me, with my wife, growing up in this and seeing what this is like from the very beginning. [snorts] >> Um and also like, you know, there's there's a pattern for this in scripture of how like uh in Acts 20:20, how like he says, "I taught you guys publicly from house to house." Yeah. We're like we're constantly just in different places. >> Yes.
¶140>> Um and learning scripture together. A lot of the times it seems like and maybe this is a like a product of our time of Sunday being like the moment where people learn the most of the Bible like one day of the week. This is when I learn the Bible. This is when I learn from the word of God. And then I think that's what feeds into the sermon centrality, not the Lord's supper.
¶141It's kind of an afterthought. It's done quickly. Those kinds of things. When shouldn't it be? I mean, Acts I mean, I'm always quoted this about solos scriptura, but to turn it around here, I'd say Acts 17:11 says, "The Bereans were noble." And a lot of people treat it as because they searched the scriptures.
¶142Uh, but I don't think that supports solos scriptor. I think it's because Luke is saying they were more noble minded. They searched the scriptures daily. >> I love that detail. That's an accident.
¶143They searched the scriptures daily. They were immersed in them every single day. It wasn't, oh, it's Sunday. Time to go to adult Sunday school. Yeah.
¶144Yeah, it's like I think there's there is a place for that. I think what's helpful is also for little kids. I I get the kids can be, you know, my kids are older now, but they all went through the toddler phase. I think we should have that one I love the cry room, one little soundproof room. Go in for a bit, then when they're calmed down.
¶145Yeah. >> Come out. Get like there's a balancing act, right? You shouldn't do dagger stairs for one little peep. But if that kid is wailing like an ambulance for the past minute, like you got to take them out for a bit.
¶146You got to be a little bit Oh, I remember I think the one time I remember I think it was like one of my children was 2 years old and he's like on the pew like trying to like pay attention and then he slips bonks his head. >> Always the head bonk. Oh man. >> But here's the thing. You know when kids are really hurt when they when they get hurt and they can't immediately cry cuz they're out of breath and they're [laughter] like >> and it's just like and it's like you see the timer starting to tick down and I like scoop them up like a football and I'm just like [laughter] running to the side door cuz I know he is just going to absolutely whail.
¶147I'm like got to get it got to get him out before he like it's not even just like the uncomfortable cry. It's like it's like you know it's like they can't speak they're out of breath so the next breath they're going to be whailing. I remember I'm like, I gotta run. You You've been [laughter] there. >> I've lived this so many times where it's like my daughter hits her head and my wife is more optimistic than me.
¶148She'll kind of give me the look like she's probably not going to cry. I'm like, you're wasting precious time. Get out of here. [laughter] She's about to scream. We have about 4 seconds before she catches her breath.
¶149>> And here's the door. >> But here's the thing that gets and this is my third mode proprio as pope. The aisles of the pews are reserved. Here's here's just a general rule I will give is reserved for someone who has a bladder the size of a hamster. [laughter] That is the like you I'll go into a Catholic I'll go into all kinds of parishes have the kids and you walk and and it is like looking at the pews.
¶150It is like Southwest Airlines back before they had a sign boarding. You go and it's like all the edges are nobody wants this the middle seat. They're all on the edges of the pew and I'm like I've got a four-year-old and a 2-year-old here. You really you is sitting on the edge that important to you? So that I am going to be like scrambling by you, my butts in your face, like trying to get by, getting my kid out just so you can save three seconds when you're when you're getting out.
¶151Like people with small children that should be reserved, they get the edge of the pew. So for bathrooms or crying, they can make that quick quick escape. And especially it's it's like imagine you have like the long traditional church hallway like you were in. Especially those pews on the edge. Yeah.
¶152>> So, imagine you have like you have the central aisle proceeding to the altar and you've got like two rows of pews here. >> Especially those pews on the outside edge cuz the worst is if you get an inside pew like yeah it's okay you can get up but then you got to do the walk of shame down the main aisle. >> Got to do that walk of shame with the crying kid or uh you know the kid that's like about to to pee himself. >> So I would please people who got to go. So small children I will even reserve for for elderly who have to like maybe make a mid- bathroom break.
¶153>> Yeah. But if if you can hold it the whole way through, let the seat be open. >> Yeah. I need an average bladder time from everyone like when they come into the church. Like how long are we talking here?
¶154If you're like a 35m minuteer, you know, >> we just we should just color code [laughter] the pews. We just color code them red, yellow, and green. Yeah. >> Based on like how long you can hold it and then and that way people have a have a quick out. >> I did have a question about the Eucharist.
¶155Um, and I I think we started to talk about this and I wanted to talk more about it cuz I I don't fully I don't think we got to get to it. Um, >> in um I believe Yeah. In in the service, everyone got the bread. They didn't get the fruit of the vine oralice. Yeah.
¶156The chalice. Yes. >> And that that is um very different for me in terms of just how we do stuff. Um I I really I'm really curious as to what the reasoning is for it. Um [snorts] because like and for all the obvious things you've heard before, it just seems like everything in scripture would indicate that everyone got both.
¶157But right well although there are passages in scripture that Paul talks about um uh taking the blaspheming or sorry profaining the body or the blood. He uses the conjunction or. Uh and so this is a disciplinary element that had developed still early on within church history uh about concerns about like spilling the precious blood for example about you know reverencing that this is the body and blood of Christ that even if it if it were to to spill use a special uh purificator and holy water on it so to I I think that that's the discipline that's really developed from that and also hygiene other elements. Uh so that's where it's developed. But there I would say there is scriptural backing that it's not necessary.
¶158While there is you might even say a fullness to it, it's not strictly necessary to have both kinds in order to receive the body and blood. I'll include a link below. We have an article that was written at catholic.com just recently just on this going through the historical development of it. I think Brian Burroughs is his name because someone else actually asked me about this as well. Uh, so I'll include a link to that.
¶159So I would say it's a it's a discipline that's developed, but we do have scriptural warrant that it's not strictly necessary in order to receive Christ's body and blood. >> Oh, interesting. Yeah, I that's a tough one for me. I I I And again, I get it's probably just like that comes down to a paradigmatic thing of like solos scriptura kind of stuff, but right Oh, man. It's just that's a tough one for me.
¶160It just I Yeah, I I I remain to be con convinced about it, but I get I'm happy to read the I'll read the article. I'll I'll send that to you to to to go through with that. >> Now, yeah. So, with that, like is there stuff that is in the liturgy that is like not changeable? >> Oh, yeah.
¶161Like you you you like you couldn't change for example the words of consecration or the um the the matter the form. So, you can't change when it comes to the sacrament, you can't change the form and matter of it. >> So, for example, you couldn't use uh you can't use grape juice, >> you know, it has to be wine. It has to have an alcoholic element to it. Now, you could use what's called for uh for priests to receive it who may have struggled with alcoholism, they could use what's called must, which is like wine that has begun to ferment, but the fermentation process has been halted.
¶162So, it's really really low alcohol content. >> Could they go back to giving both uh things in the Eucharist? Like, is that a change that's possible to be made where they they give the chalice and the bread? >> Yeah, I would say that's that's disciplinary. That's something similar to like priestly celibacy would be another similar discipline that that has changed over time and could change.
¶163Uh but there are things that are that are part of the deposit of faith. The clearest example would be well one that the priest has to be a man. That's something that can't change. Uh whether the priest is married or not, that's something that could change. Uh whether um uh so but whether especially like the form and matter of the sacrament.
¶164So you you could not uh change like the words of institution uh take eat this represents my body like you said something like that it wouldn't it wouldn't be valid anymore. Uh and like I said with um like if you used instead of bread if you used you know instead of using unleaven bread you used like lettuce or something I don't know. Uh now there have been elements of trying to retain the sacrament while understanding different barriers that people have. So like for example, my wife has celiac disease. >> So she like cannot have uh wheat.
¶165So what the bishops determined is that in order for it to actually be bred, it just has to have some wheat in it. Even if it's a microscopic amount, but it has to at least have some, even if it's an extremely extremely low gluten >> host. uh and and you need and this is just difficult because um you know going from Protestantism and the liturgy we've talked we've covered a lot of that. I think that's why it's so important to have a living teaching authority in the church, especially one that can that can teach and bind universally for the whole church is so very important because these questions just come up. You know, it's like if you think like, oh well, if I have the New Testament, that answers everything for me.
¶166It's like, well, the New Testament wasn't meant to answer every single question important question we have about the faith or the liturgy. So, it's like, well, can we celebrate the Eucharist every day? Is it just like how often? Because there's some Protestant churches, you know, who will receive the Lord's supper maybe quarterly or like once a month? >> Like should it be weekly, daily, monthly?
¶167What how much is permitted? How much is obligated? >> So that's why I do think it's very important for churches to discuss like what is the nature of the universal teaching authority or do does every church just kind of figure it out on their own? And that can get kind of messy. >> Yeah, it definitely does get messy.
¶168I mean, we've all seen that. We we do it every single week. I I would argue to anyone who's watching this whose church does it quarterly or something. Uh the reason why you should do it every single week is because there's you you don't find anything else like that's the only thing that you see you see that you know they do this on the first day of the week right >> and if you go well how many first days of the week you know how many the only thing is you see it's on the first day of the week. So then you we could like pretty easily say I'd argue therefore when the first day of the week comes around we better be doing that you know.
¶169>> Yeah. And yeah, a a a more complicated conversation would be like, all right, well, what about beyond that? What about Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday? >> Right? And that's where you need that's why we say like the apostles are given the ability to bind and loose.
¶170It allows them to be able to make these binding ecclesial laws for the church to permit, obligate, or forbid. And yeah, then there's other elements that come up to it. And it's not even just like the Eucharist. Like I remember a few years ago when Christmas Day fell on a Sunday, there were a lot of Protestant churches that said, "Well, we're just we're not going to have service." >> Yeah. >> Today because everybody wants to be home.
¶171>> The gift of rest. That's what they said. The gift of rest. >> Oh, on the Lord's day of all days, the gift of rest means not worship. >> I love it.
¶172I love the the gift of rest. That's a great way when you're basically saying you want to take when you want to take a day off. >> Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] It's like it's like well I don't really want to I don't want to show up to my job today so you guys shouldn't have to come to church.
¶173>> All the things that you could ever rest from that that should be the only thing that you don't like rest that would be your rest like you know being with God's people >> but especially like >> but especially the idea of like what is but this goes back though because there were a lot of like the Puritans for example did not celebrate Christmas. >> They called it popish nonsense. I mean it's Christ's mass. That's where the word comes from. So they didn't celebrate Christmas.
¶174They considered it roish pop-ish. Uh but then there's a concern. It's like, oh well, oh, it's Christmas day. We want to be home eating and doing presents. Like it's like, wait a minute.
¶175If if that's the centrality of Christmas for you, >> you've lost the plot about why we celebrate, you know, the nativity, the birth the birth of our Lord, like that. And this, you know, you've you you've replaced the um it's always funny even the the the Christians who are most opposed to like icons like I understand like I think I get a lot of Protestants on board at least with hey crucifix this is our Lord and Savior should be fine to have an image of him in church statues of saints like people a bit more like have a hard time with that. >> Yeah. >> Except Jesus, Mary, Joseph and the ox and the donkey at Christmas. That's one I think can always be a can always be a cell and it's a similar principle there.
¶176Here are the holy men and women of God in at least important elements there at least within salvation history. >> Yeah. >> You know to be able like for like some like with my paradigm without like a like a quote unquote like a living magisterium or something. Um usually and everything I hear you saying is related to for the most part in terms of like how stuff gets applied. Yeah.
¶177>> Um like again frequency of the Eucharist or something like this. A a lot of it seems to be like what is what is the best way for us to apply it today when like circumstances may have changed or something like that. That's what it sounds like to me. [snorts] >> Which is why I wonder like um >> so like when it comes to things that could or could not change like in the worship um is it are there some Catholic churches that like don't use like organs and stuff like that or like you know what I mean like >> Oh yeah. Yeah.
¶178So element so the um the congregation for divine worship. So there is um a dcastastery within the Vatican with uh >> what's it called? >> Well, it's essentially like a department. Okay. >> Uh but we don't call it that, you know, we don't call it that because that's very secular.
¶179So dcastastery would be cardinals and members of the magisterian bishops. I mean uh cardinals, archbishops, those who are leadership within the Vatican appointed by the pope who oversee various uh elements of the faith in the church. So there's, you know, a diccastastery related to the doctrine of the faith, understanding what does the church teach and answering questions people have. How do we apply this teaching to this circumstance, especially with like ethical questions or new um doctrinal questions? >> U you know, the the cast had to be asked questions like uh if somebody says for the baptism, uh we baptize you in the name of the the father, son, and the holy spirit instead of I baptize you.
¶180It's like, is that still valid? And the answer is is no. Or, you know, baptism in the name of the the creator, sanctifier, redeemer, but name of the creator, redeemer, sanctifier instead of father, son, holy spirit. That one's an easy one. But the wei language to say, well, no, the point of I is that the person stands, they're standing in the person of Christ that it is Christ who baptizes this person and it shifts the theology away to it's just the community who is doing something like that.
¶181And there's people who are, you know, when lurggical abuses happen. And so there's there's doctrinal issues, there's liturggical issues that arise, you know, is this permitted, is that permitted? Uh so the second Vatican council had a document on the liturgy called sacrosanum conchilium talking about the reform of the liturgy, especially making sure that people have full active conscious participation in the liturgy. It's not something that just passively observing [clears throat] >> and talking about, okay, well, how do we in involve people? Music is a way for people to be involved.
¶182Um what kind of music? And so it lists you know talking about how things like Gregorian chant have a special pride of place within the church but there are other uh sacred other kinds of sacred music can be performed with other kinds of instrument but they should be befitting of the sacred quality that should be present here. It should be distinct from mere profane or you know worldly music. So it so it leaves latitude. So there will be churches that might focus more on organs uh those that might focus more on just like the choir singing.
¶183Uh, and then there's others that might incorporate more contemporary musical instruments. And I have been to parishes that have the guitar have the orange with the rice in it. >> Um, and and it can but that can still be done because the church uh also believes in a principle called inculturation. >> So um in understanding that and this is something the church has done for you know thousands of years that's saying like originally like yeah we want to be like the first Christians. We're not a slave to what the first Christians did because there was no idea of a building dedicated for church until about the 4th century.
¶184So before that there was worship in house churches where people also lived. >> Uh but then after Christianity becomes the legal religion of the Roman Empire, the pagan temples are taken and used for sites of Christian worship. And so in the 4th century now we have buildings consecrated and dedicated to worship. And then there the questions that arise well how do we worship here and in different cultures throughout out the world you see if you look at like mass in Africa or mass in Latin America you might see different forms of singing different forms of chanting that reflect the culture but inculturation means we baptize whatever is good in a culture and use it to glorify Christ and then we would say anything that is contrary to Christ we would say no. So if you've got voodoo, witchcraft, things that are contrary, we have to draw a firm line.
¶185>> Snake handling. [laughter] >> Yeah. Well, yeah, that'd be the appalachians, I guess. But if you have something that is that is neutral, you know, a particular way of chanting or singing or or dancing or an instrument that is played, if it's something neutral, that's something, you know, that can be baptized in the liturgy and that that can be incorporated. So there's there's going to be different elements there, but you always have to be careful about in inculturation becoming a bit too worldly in it.
¶186So there's a fine line there. >> Yeah. Because like we So cool that is a very cool way to put it. We have like a a concept of this as well in singing style. Yeah.
¶187>> U broadly there's there's not a concept of this in terms of like whether or not we would use mechanical instruments. It's like one of the more quoteunquote famous things or infamous things about Churches of Christ that like >> it's more of like the fringe like hyper lib people that like bring out guitars and stuff like that. >> But typically the only variation is in singing style and like you know the church where I'm at we use like a four-part harmony uh kind of a style which I would imagine um your wife's grandfather it's probably what was popular. >> But you do use instruments though or is it just it's just a capella? >> Yeah, just a capella.
¶188The only instrument is the voice. We don't even like >> pitch perfect church of Christ edition. [laughter] Well, that's interesting because the church that I I've been to Eastern Catholic churches and the Orthodox is similar in this way. They've retained that similar tradition of just using ac cappella. And so what we would say the Catholic Church teaches is that that is permissible, but it's it's not obligatory.
¶189It's not a part of the depositive faith saying that sacred music can only be produced by the human voice, that there are instruments. But this is something that has had to develop within church history because in the early church the organ when the organ was first introduced it was considered controversial because it was associated with kind of like Roman debauchery. It was associated with like pagan you know debaucherous events where they would play the organ. And so now you know when you think of the organ we think like the most conservative or something. >> Sure.
¶190Or uh even styles of singing uh monophony versus polifany. So different ways of like harmonizing tones that was actually in the middle ages controversial when polifany began to so even not even just the human voice but how many how do the human voices interact is it too much to use polifany can is it just monophony uh so so these developments to occur and the the magisterium's role is to serve the deposit of faith that's handed on but also using its judgment to apply that teaching in novel situations or developments that just don't fall under what was given into Christ and the apostles. >> Yeah. How interesting. Yeah.
¶191Cuz again, broadly we only we only sing the variation is in singing style a lot of the time. Um and you know usually the the rejoinder to that is something like well you know David use instruments and things like that. However like [snorts] it seems like there's like a real strong absence of this. Strong absence is a funny thing to say. A loud silence of this like in the New Testament in terms of what the church does.
¶192I just saw an article like an opinion article from on Catholic Answers. uh can't remember his name, Mark something. My name is Marco. Um but about like maybe the piano is not the best uh for like certain I guess that's the inculturation idea. Like it's like too uh contemporary or like it's too similar to that kind of stuff.
¶193That's fascinating. I didn't know about inculturation that idea. >> My my favorite thing though is when the choir is able to incorporate uh trumpets and horns. >> Really? it it because it g well yeah especially around Easter we'll include that for the liturgy cuz it just gives like this wonderful regal triumphal feel and what's interesting is I would say that that's that that hearkens to like that's not certainly not modernism or c it's a sense of like christryendom or the early Byzantine court like when Christianity had developed from being the persecuted religion to being the bedrock of civilization of being this is but ties together our civilization as this common faith.
¶194We worship in the court, the you know the leaders, the people, we all have the same faith, Catholic universal. So just having like those trumpets and horns, it's like, you know, and for Easter, for triumph, it's like being, you know, we're worshiping the King of Kings. It's like we're in the court of the King of Kings as the trumpets are blaring and and saying hallelujah. So >> yeah, >> you know, so I guess yeah, there's different there's different elements to be able to add in there. But I guess people are like, well, I'm just going to do what we see like in the New Testament.
¶195Well, we don't see descriptions of like 40-minute sermons in there either or people like gathering for worship and that's why they're gathering. Well, it goes both ways. >> We don't know uh how long before midnight Paul started preaching on the first day of the week, [laughter] you know, it could have been, you know, 10:00 a.m. or could have been 11:30, right? >> Yeah.
¶196Totally. Yeah. >> Absolutely. >> Yeah. >> So, um well, I guess we've we've covered a lot of ground and um I don't know, unless there was unless there's anything else you wanted to chat about, we could get to some of the fun stuff.
¶197>> Let's get to the fun stuff. Let's get to the fun stuff. >> All the other stuff is just a vehicle to get >> to get us here. All righty. So, here is the role that Marco and I had.
¶198I'm just going to preface it right away. I get thrown around a bit, but I but I I did you just told me I did I did land some injuries on you. >> Yeah. So, my neck is still sore. Whenever I turn my neck too far to the right, like right about here, it starts to really hurt here.
¶199And you're going to see why very quickly. This starts off fast. >> Okay. I'm going to give you the I'm going to give you a chiropractor's gift certificate. Also, you've got a little bit of weight on me.
¶200I'm coming in about 175. >> Yeah, I'm fresh off my third child in like four years. So, I'm a Husky 210 right now. Husky 210. >> So, there's a reason we have weight classes and we're I think we're about even about 3, four years.
¶201We're both we're both jiu-jitsu blue belts. >> Baby blue belts. >> Baby blue belts. So, we we know enough of the fundamentals to know how much like a black belt can just truly wreck us. >> Yeah.
¶202Yeah. And I know you've been you've been training and so I knew what the the best thing that could tip the scales for me was going to be just hogging it out. Just you know what I mean? throwing the weight. I was I was feeling it in some of the mounts.
¶203We'll we'll get to that. [laughter] >> But um but yeah, what's also hard before I start is at my gym I deal with a lot. I mean, I'm 50 and 175. It's not small, but a lot of the guys are like 220, 250, 280. I I'm usually I would say I'm the smallest guy there.
¶204So, what's hard is I get a lot of practice defense, >> but not a lot offense. So, we'll see this here as it starts. My offense not the best. All right. So, we start >> the handshake the guard pull again.
¶205Respectful. >> Yeah, I pull guard any chance I get. >> All right, then. I'm moving goal here. Try to get to the front headlock position.
¶206>> Yeah, it's going to get bad quick for me. I I could not breathe for a little bit here. Like right about here. Right there. You get the lock.
¶207Oh, when you got the lock, I went uh >> Oh. >> Well, that's because So, the move here, what I've got is this is the front headlock. And I've decided to go for the anaconda choke. So I'm around the neck. I've grabbed my elbow.
¶208My hands come out your armpit. I've lock Yeah, I locked it up. Put the hand trying to get the hand on the back. >> And I my instinct here. So there's two ways.
¶209If you're watching this, if you have hands locked underneath the person, you could slide out under the armpit like I did. That's called anaconda. Or you could slide the other way and put your hands over their neck and that's called the dar. Yeah. >> And my in my opinion is I feel like my instinct is anaconda cuz I want to drive my dominant arm through.
¶210>> Yeah. >> But I feel like the dart I should have gone with the dar. >> The dar is better. >> The dar is a better choke. >> Anaconda.
¶211There's there's a lot of room to wiggle. Especially cuz you got to do that gator roll. Yeah. >> Well, look at me as the great defender that I am. Both hands on the mat.
¶212No defense at all. Just waiting to see what you're going to do. [laughter] >> Yeah. So then, so then I knock your arm out to do the gator roll for the anaconda. >> There you go.
¶213See, I'm just waiting to go. Uhoh. Problem. >> And I'm like, come on, come on, come on. I was going I could I could feel that feeling right there.
¶214>> And then it then I lost it and then we're back. >> Hurts so bad. Someone said uh I showed this to one of my jiu-jitsu friends and he goes uh who doesn't like he doesn't really know much, but he was like did Trent just like be nice and like let go of you there and let you reset. And I was like give me a little credit here. >> No, you slipped out well.
¶215>> If I kept your head in my abdomen and locked up the anaconda tighter before the gator roll, I think I would have had it. But I had I went too fast. >> Reset. Now I'm on my knees now. Now this is >> Now we're time to really go at it.
¶216>> Yeah. Now I go, "All right, this is what Trent has in store for me. Don't give him the front headlock again." So I just pull guard. >> Yeah. >> My thing is >> Now you got me Now you've got me in half guard.
¶217Is that one you like? >> I do the under hook. I my left leg I try to collect your right leg with it. And then >> I did not see the sweep coming. That's where things That's where things go unfortunate and like oh great now I'm in half guard.
¶218And then my thing here, I just went to my ABC thing. I go to the sit back pass. So I I'm establishing a control here and then I just put my arm on the other side and I just show you my back. >> Yeah. So I'm not sure what you're doing.
¶219So I'm just keeping a regular frame and I'm like, "All right." >> Annoying frames by the way here. Like your arms are under there. I should have dealt with that first because I'm going to mess up quickly. Like frames frames your knee's already in there. Oh, so annoying.
¶220I'm I mean I've got a pretty squirly game, but one part of my game I'm at least happy with is I can usually recover guard. >> Yeah. >> And so I was happy at least here I'm like I'm got to keep him from getting past like okay if I can get my closed guard back. >> You're ky dude. You're just you're so ky.
¶221>> It's elbows to knees. Elbows elbows to knees. All right. So I've kept the closed guard. >> Yeah.
¶222And I'm trying to do the armpit thing. You know the armpit move. And then you have this crazy ability to not let my wrist go. Look at me. I'm trying to do everything to get my wrist out.
¶223>> Well, I was I was seeing that and I was like, can I get a kamura? Could I maybe if I get if I if I get the arm down enough, could I could I maybe get the kamura from that? So, actually, I I was thinking about that. That was the other mistake I made was I I I can keep a closed guard pretty tight on people, it's pretty hard for people to break it. I lot some one of the things I'll do is I'll keep a closed guard and I'll wait for someone to try to do a standing break.
¶224>> Yeah, that's what I was going to do, too. I I should have [laughter] >> because actually >> What's your move when I do the standing break? >> Well, no. This has happened to us before. I I'll find the video.
¶225>> Yes, it did happen to us before. >> I will find the video because when we rolled before you attempted a standing break and I dummy swept you. >> Yeah, you dummy swept me, dude. >> And so like I was just But here's So like a lot of times when I do close guard and people do the standing break, I'll release, grab the ankles, and I dummy sweep. >> And when you did it to me, I feel like the biggest dummy.
¶226I literally did. I was like, "How did I get hit with that?" That's like a day one thing. >> But that's the thing. So I I do that a lot. But here's the problem is that in my game going from white to blue belt, a lot of times I have stalled in closed guard where I'll just, you know, keep the guard locked cuz I'm safe.
¶227It's like, okay, if I'm in closed guard, it's locked. I can't get submitted. But the problem is I can't advance from closed guard. So I've been working with my coach like, okay, >> only do closed guard for an emergency. Then get back to open guard and try to advance and do stuff.
¶228So, I was just like, "Okay, let me let me go to open and play around." But you just you pass that bad boy way too way too. >> We send you our original video if you want to show you dummy sweat. >> Oh, yeah. We'll we'll have to add that in there. So, now I'm just trying to like keep a knee shield in.
¶229>> Yeah. >> And I'm like trying to look I'm trying to go also for my kamoras. >> Here. I'm passing. >> Oh, I think you've got you got the pass.
¶230I know. I'm starting to get into trouble here. >> Yeah. Cross face. >> I'm feeling it.
¶231Trying to keep I'm trying to keep the frame. >> Then I do the sit back pass and then I just make you deal with love handles. That's all you can see. >> Just the >> I'm feeling I'm feeling 215 a little here on my [laughter] diaphragm. >> You made a noise at the end.
¶232We'll address it when it comes. You made a noise that I've been thinking about ever since. Anytime I want to eat a cheeseburger >> there. There is my half guard disappearing under the full mount and I'm like, "All right." A lot of times though, I can still get out of this stuff with people. You had a good full mount.
¶233>> Yeah. I I just uh I I've worked hard on the full mount. If I can ever get there, it's great. >> No, you're >> here. I'm trying to get the gift wrap and go to the back and then you just stop turning like trying to go gift wrap trying to grab my other wrist.
¶234>> So, as I'm popping my head out cuz I know if my if my arm grows around my head, I'm done for. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Also, we did this. We We're going to do 3 minutes and I was waiting for that timer and it went like four and a half.
¶235>> I didn't hear it go off and then your volume was down. >> Yeah. >> I didn't hear no bail. >> All right. So, yeah.
¶236So, now I'm >> frames. Well, now I'm trying to like really if I can just shrimp out, >> dude. I almost had you there. >> Oh, wait. Go.
¶237Let me let me >> I've gotten just so you know, I wanted to tell you this. >> That straight arm bar there, I've gotten muscular 260lb men in that straight arm bar. When you got out of that, I was pretty upset. I Yeah, that that thing I've gotten big dudes in that >> like I said. Well, so like my game because I'm at a gym where like nearly all the guys are bigger than me, I've had to develop a high level of defense just to deal with guys who are 100 120 pounds heavier.
¶238So what sucks though is that I don't get a lot of practice on offense with smaller people to get my submissions to be lethal because I don't practice them. A lot of times I'm just learning defense with these big guys. >> When I started started training at this gym, same thing for me, all defense. Only guy, shout out to him that I got to practice my offense on, Spencer. He was always lower than me.
¶239So, I got to I got to try stuff out. >> There you go. Okay. So, you're trying the straight arm bar, but like I said, I have a kg game, so I'm pretty >> Yeah, >> I'm always like, "Okay, got to stay out of here." >> You recognize quickly when there's a problem. >> Oh, absolutely.
¶240Like here, I'm like, "Okay, you got my hips. I'm not in danger, but I can't move." And I want to hook your leg here. I want to >> Oh, this time I don't do it. Normally, >> now I think you're just going back back to the mount. >> Back to mount.
¶241>> And oh, going to high mount. I'm in trouble. Oh, and here's here's here's where the game here's the game. >> Here's where it all goes away from me. And I was just hoping [laughter] Oh, pause it there.
¶242I was I was just hoping I was like, "Okay, I don't know how where'd you get my arm. We're going >> right around here." Like I was faking gift wrap and then >> Oh, that was it. You faked the And now And you did a roll back to get the um >> Yeah. >> to get the arm and I was like, "Oh, let's see." >> Yeah. >> Can you go to the moment when you made the sound that has been uh haunting me ever since?
¶243Hold on. Let me turn up. See, let me see. Can I hear it? >> It's further back.
¶244It's further back. >> Oh, where? >> Right when I sit on you like right there, >> you're going to hear yourself go. [laughter] >> You got you you were putting your whole the the hard part for me is like when I'm trying to like maintain top control on people, I have to do all these tricks like get on my toes instead of my knees to have weight on like their abdomen. You just like sat your butt on me [laughter] and I was just feeling all, you know, 210 215 pounds of that.
¶245So, okay. So, then you're >> Don't say 215. I said 210. >> 210. 210.
¶246I think you said I think you said 215 when we were there. Maybe that morning. >> You lost you've lost 5 lbs since then. [laughter] >> Okay. So, then and then I see then the arm bars going and I had a faint hope.
¶247I was like, if I could just clear my head. Yes. >> I was like, oh, if I could clear my head, I can get out of this one. >> And I was and then I grabbed the ankle. I'm like, come on.
¶248But I should have I was focusing too much on trying to clear the head. I should have just done a hitchhiker >> because I've gotten we did a um what was it? Oh, we did a we were playing around at our conference. I'll find a clip of this and put it in there. We were just playing around at the Catholic Answers conference.
¶249There was a guy there, an attendee who had a rash guard and we just went and rolled with a few people in one of the upper room. So, yeah, we've come to the conference. We'll do a whole thing. >> Um and he got me in an arm he had me in an arm bar. Uh, but I was able to roll out of it.
¶250>> I was able to do the roll because >> best feeling. >> Oh, it feels so good. >> Escaping an arm bar. Best beer. >> It Yeah, exactly.
¶251And so then, so that was the rented like I'm really >> end of that. So yeah, he got me. So yeah, it was about 3 minutes 40s. But I love at the end though. I love when like middle-aged guys roll cuz at the end [laughter] we're just like, >> yeah, >> I'm tired.
¶252>> And by the way, you know, after this you had to go. I was getting my stuff to go and my coach goes, hey, you're training, right? And I have to say yes to this. Oh, you can't turn your coach down when they say that. >> It was brutal.
¶253It was brutal. I escaped as quickly as I could from him. >> No, I I understand. So, good times. We'll uh we'll have to get together and do they I really want to do the the Catholic Protestant ecumenical dialogue and we all do jiu-jitsu and MMA after.
¶254>> We got to get we'll get everybody together. [snorts] And uh it's a surprising number of people. Even I think Jacob Hansen's a Mormon. He does jiu-jitsu. Like Matt Chandler's a Protestant pastor here.
¶255He does it. >> This guy Matt Chandler starts a podcast called Between Sundays. Matt Chandler, I'm coming for you. He trains Well, he's a higher level. He'll probably beat me up.
¶256>> Well, he's I think he's a blue belt. I because I know the guy I know the guy who trains him. He just he's now a black belt and I'm going to like organize something together. So, um >> but I want to I want to train with Matt Chandler and Winner gets between Sundays as their YouTube channel name or something. >> We'll we'll we'll set it up with all of us.
¶257So, >> knowing him, he'll beat me. [laughter] >> Well, I hear he's uh he's got a tall lanky game. Yeah, >> I actually don't mind with the tall lanky guys when I roll with them because it gives me a lot of outs to sneak out of stuff. So, >> well, Matt Chandler, you're not David. >> You remember that sermon?
¶258>> Oh, yes, that's right. You think you're David? You're You are not David. The Bible's not about you. >> So, we'll uh Matt, hopefully we'll have you out here.
¶259We'll do we'll do a few things. So, sir, fun chat, fun roll. >> You're the man, dude. >> You are the man. So, um thank you guys and uh check out Marco's Marco's channel.
¶260I'll link to that below. And I hope you all have a very blessed day.