¶1Welcome everyone to the Council of Trent podcast. Today my guest is Avery aka God Logic. He's been doing a lot of debates with Muslims, with non-trinitarians. Uh he's really blowing up out there. So I'm excited to share his work with you guys.
¶2And yeah, Avery, welcome to Council Trent. >> Thank you, man. I've been seeing this stuff online in my feed. I'm like, man, this is this guy's dope. So, uh I'm I'm happy to be here.
¶3Can't wait to >> And now you you get to see where all the magic happens. >> I get to see where it happens, man. Where it all goes down. People are always like, "Uh, it's a lot smaller than I thought it would be." >> Well, you know, I for me it's I got a small little room where I just do my streams is. So, for me, this is this is nice.
¶4It's real nice. >> It's always funny when you meet YouTubers, too. I always feel like when you meet a YouTuber, a lot of times they're usually like taller or bigger than you think they're going to be. Like when I met Alex O'Conner, I'm like, "Wow, you're really tall." >> Yeah, he was tall. Yeah.
¶5>> I did not think you were going to be I I feel like you watch them on your phone, they look just they're four inches high. >> Yeah. [laughter] Well, they the way I angle my camera too doesn't help either. But yeah, I'm I'm actually I'm six foot flat. Like I just I barely made it, you know, and so now I get to tell everybody >> as long as you can have as long as you have the six, you're doing you're doing all right.
¶6>> Yeah, I made it. I made it. >> I used to be able I I never would I never tried to claw at six. I think when I was, you know, around more like your age, I used to say like confidently 5'11. Now I think like when my hair is extra fluffy I'm like at 510 [laughter] because you cuz you shrink as you get older.
¶7I'm I'm feeling it. So enjoy enjoy the six now and then when you get 40 or 50 it's like I'm almost tough cuz I'm telling you man I was like telling all my friends before I went to the doctor I like yeah I'm six foot. I don't care what y'all say. Right. I went to the doctor got my proof and I barely made it.
¶8So you're telling me I'm about to lose it? >> Not right now. Time comes every movie. you're you're starting out well right now. So, why don't you tell us some of my audience who aren't familiar with your work?
¶9What do you focus on as an apologist? And how did you get started with this? Cuz this feels I don't know how long how long have you been doing this online? >> Uh four years now, YouTube. Um I was we were just talking about Clubhouse.
¶10I was on Clubhouse for about two years before I started YouTube. Okay. >> So, I really got sharpened up really on Clubhouse a lot. >> Tell our listeners cuz we were talking about it earlier. I'm not as familiar with Clubhouse.
¶11sort of like an interactive like chat feature and a lot of people for different like topics. >> Yeah. Yeah. So I mean you can find whatever you're interested in whether it's music, cooking, anything uh stocks. And so obviously my field was apologetics.
¶12You know I my friends told me, "Hey man, you would love Clubhouse." So I went to Clubhouse. I searched them. Where the Muslims at? I put in Muslims and their rooms started popping up. I said yes.
¶13I was like a ca a kid in a candy shop, you know. So this is one where it's just rooms are just Muslims are hanging out. >> Yeah. Muslims are either hanging out, they're debating, you know, they got all kinds of topics. Jesus is not God, Bible's corrupted, Paul's a liar, all this kind of stuff.
¶14And I just like I found my people. >> Yeah. >> You know, and so uh so that's what Clubhouse was. So I started also running my own rooms there and my own topics. And that's how a lot of people got affiliated with me and what I do and my my style.
¶15And then started YouTube once I felt ready or God called me. Well, let me tell you what's your background a little bit then as a Christian. Have you always grown up as a Christian or is this something you kind of came to later in life? >> Yeah, man. So, I I grew up my dad is a pastor and my mom's family, they were all pastors and preachers and evangelists and stuff like that.
¶16So, they um I I there was never a time where I don't I I remember not believing it in Christ, you know. And I grew up trying to tell my friends, "Hey, don't cuss. say, "Please God forgive me when you when you say a cuss word." [laughter] You know what I'm saying? Don't Don't swear. >> And you didn't turn into like the pastor's kid who like because there's that stereotype like you got the pastor's kid who's like, "I don't want to be like everything my dad is and they go off the rails." That didn't happen to you.
¶17>> No, my my dad he was cool, man. He was he he he both he and my mom, they did it. They [snorts] they gave us Christianity naturally, like, you know, gave us B they made the Bible fun. Um you know, involved our cousins in the Sunday. Like it was cool, you know.
¶18I had a good time learning the stories. I had a good My dad when he preached and came home, he was the same guy on the pull pit, you know, funny, silly, witty, and presented it in a way that we could understand. And so I loved that. And and um I loved how my dad would he wasn't he didn't switch up when he was in front of people. >> He's not fake.
¶19And I think a lot of kids, especially like the pastor's kid thing, it's like you see your dad act one way on Sunday, but you see how he's really like during the week and you get >> disenchanted. Exactly. Exactly. So, I I learned a lot from that, just watching that, observing that character. And I, you know, once I began to get in ministry, I was like, "Yeah, I I'm always going to be myself." And that's what they taught us to always be yourself no matter what.
¶20>> Yeah. >> And so, yeah, so that was my background, man. I grew up, you [snorts] know, um, you know, leading youth ministries and being part of Bible studies, young adult Bible studies and stuff like that. But I never knew about apologetics. That was I never knew that existed, you know?
¶21I just thought it's preaching sermons, preaching Bible study, teaching Bible study. You know what I'm saying? It was a charismatic church, so singing and worship and all this kind of stuff. And uh a lot, you know, >> people being slain and slain in the mirror, you know, turn, touch your neighbor and TELL HIM GOD'S GOING TO DO it for you, you know, that kind of stuff. >> You've got the you got the one-handed high five.
¶22You got you got the I was the bowl. I always You're holding [laughter] a big bowl in front of you. Yeah. >> Yeah. So that that was my culture, man.
¶23That was my culture. But [clears throat] once I got so I went to a community college and that's where I began to see uh Jehovah's Witnesses set up their stand. >> Yeah. >> And I was really curious and so I went over there to ask them questions and that's when I got challenged for the first time >> theologically and I didn't know how to respond in the moment. I didn't know how to [snorts] I didn't have the presence of mind to read in context.
¶24You know, they showed me Colossians 1:15 about Jesus being firstborn of creation, right? >> And I'm like, "Oh, >> yeah. Does that mean he was the first thing that was made?" It's like, "Well, how can he be God if he's made?" Exactly. >> Because Yeah. It's hard if if you're you preach and you know all of the great cuz that's how I was kind of in junior high.
¶25I knew the stories of the Bible and I thought they were great stories but I didn't know the reasons and I didn't know the attacks like if you if you know the attacks beforehand they don't throw you off your game but if you get them for the first time it's like somebody who gets like attacked on the street and they don't have martial arts training you get punched in the face you're like what the heck was that? >> Yeah. >> And that's [laughter] kind of like why you the Jehovah's Witness like we'll do that to you. They hit you with scripture like >> wait what's that? and you're startled, but it makes you want to be like, "Okay, I got to learn this stuff." >> Man, that's when it it woke me up.
¶26It woke me up to a whole new light cuz So, I'm calling at the time and I know I I've read the Bible at this point. I've read the Bible through at least twice. Yeah. You know, so I've seen John 1:1. I've seen John 10 30 and I've seen all these, you know, go-to verses, but none of that stuff popped up in my head.
¶27And so, [clears throat] I called Dad. I'm like, "Dad, isn't Jesus God in the Bible?" Say, "Yeah." I said, "Where, man?" John 1:1 is where was with God? Where was God? He start quoting all the go-to passages. I'm like, duh.
¶28Yeah. >> But I didn't have the sense to bring this up because I was shook. >> So I was like, okay. >> So [snorts] there's it's different from reading it and even knowing it then uh as opposed to being challenged. Yes.
¶29And and criticized, you know, critiqued, scrutinized. And so I was like, man, I wasn't equipped. I'm not equipped. Yeah. >> And so if I'm not equipped, and I know my peers who also help teach these Bible studies and lead these young adult ministries and events, I know they're not equipped either.
¶30>> And if we're not equipped, and we're like kind of the above the slight average, we thought >> then, so those lower than us who we're teaching and running with and leading, they don't know anything. >> The sec the second they run into a Jehovah Witness, it's over. So I was like, "Yeah, no." So I got to get equipped. And I that put it in perspective to me that believers as a whole need to be equipped to handle these cults and answer them. >> Yeah.
¶31>> So that's when God birthed God logic. [laughter] >> Okay. >> Started you started relying on the logic of God studying getting our why. Why should I trust the Bible? Why Jesus?
¶32Why the resurrection? Why is he God and not just a created son man? And I fell so much more in love with with Christ. >> Yeah. >> Knowing this that like you're true like you actually are true.
¶33not that I feel it and experience it and you're true like like uh logically you're historically true. You're you're you match reality, you know. So, well, so you're you're going into that. What were were there like certain people that you kind of looked to as like mentors or people you studied from to try to like get better at this or did you just kind of like plan your own like kind of curricula? >> Well, so I I bet I hate YouTube University, man.
¶34[laughter] >> Just watching what everyone else is doing. >> Yeah. watch what everybody has. So, my first the first guy that I uh that caught me on YouTube was Ray Comfort [snorts] at Living Waters. And so, cuz he, you know, I'm looking I'm literally looking up just >> Are you a lawyer?
¶35How many lies have you ever told? >> That's too >> Well, you're like, "Oh, I'm not a liar. If How many murders have you done?" It only takes one murder to be a murder. Only takes one lie to be a liar. >> Yeah, that's crazy.
¶36Hey, that's too good. I've seen a I've seen a bit. One day I'd love to sit down with Ray. We'll have to I'll have to see. But yeah, but you see and and I think that benefits you because you definitely seem ordered towards a lot of that street evangelism.
¶37Just let me just talk to you and share the gospel with you. And that's what he's done for like ever. >> So I've always been a people person, Trent. So I love people. I'm I'm open.
¶38I'm I'm an extrovert. So I can talk to anyone. I love talking to people. And so when I saw what he was doing, I was like, I can do that. >> Yeah.
¶39>> You know, but how do I do that? So I I binged Living Waters. I binged it. You know, I just loved how he made it easy to present the gospel and to talk to anyone and convince them and persuade them, make them think. He asked good questions.
¶40>> And so I was like, I I love that tactic. Like that is awesome. He also had they also had like a series or just a whole little 45minute special on Jehovah's Witnesses. Yeah. Like and they did it on the coat.
¶41So that >> that was right up my alley where I was at the time. So once I saw that, I was like, "Man, who are these guys? This is awesome." And then I saw them doing the street evangelism. I said, "Yes." And so I'm at my college campus. So after like uh a week of watching them, I was like, "All right, I'm ready.
¶42Let's go." [laughter] >> And you just start talking to people. >> I start talking to people. I start giving them the gospel. I started asking them questions. And what do you think happens when you die?
¶43And once I started getting that those in my reps, it was I started seeing like, wow, a lot of people um they kind of put these thoughts to the side. They don't really try to think about these much. They have, but they're like, uh, you know, whatever. >> Yeah. >> Until someone actually comes and makes them think about it, puts it in the forefront of their brain.
¶44And not a lot of people are doing that. >> Well, it's easy to be distracted nowadays. You got a million You got a million things on your phone. Like, you can just do whatever and you don't have to think about these things. So it takes someone like you who's like, "Hey, what do you what's what do you think is going to happen after you die?" Yeah.
¶45>> Like what do you what's going to happen if you stand in front of God? What how do you think that's going to go down? >> Exactly. >> And you you might think, "Oh, he's going to be totally cool with things." Think about who God really is. >> And then you should be really not so casual about it.
¶46>> Exactly. And that's what I liked about how Ray Comfort presented it. He made people like, "Wow, this is this is serious. Like this isn't just some I could think about this later. This is life and death." Yeah, >> I loved that element of it, you know, and so then um I'm, you know, James White pops up for me.
¶47I'm start getting James White and in Trinitarianism. I'm starting to see him. >> Have you Have you read James's book, The Forgotten Trinity? >> Not all of it. Okay.
¶48I started it a long time ago. I haven't finished it. I have a problem where I get to like chapter five and then I I close the book. I never get back to it. I don't know what it is about chapter fives in books, man.
¶49For me, >> it's got to pace yourself, J. You got to be paced with it. >> Yeah. You might also, you know what's funny? I've been able to get through a lot of books recently by doing audio books.
¶50>> That might help me. >> I find like for me, you know what's funny is like I've listened not just to uh books, but to debates. So sometimes I'll go on bike rides and like if I go back to a bike ride even like 15 years later, I'll be like, I listened to a James White debate in this same spot 15 years ago. So it's like, so you might, and that's helped me too to go through a lot of stuff, >> put it on Audible, do it at like 1.7, 1.8 eight times speed and you might find yourself really like moving through books a lot more if like you're not used to >> for you listening >> I would say so I mean everybody has different ways of of remembering things >> and so for yourself you might find just like listening through a book and then maybe just like hey sitting down with your wife and saying like to retain it here's what I heard here's what why I was doing in this book cuz if if you just listen and you go off do whatever it can kind of seep out >> but you might find it helpful listen and then explain to somebody else. Like even for me, I I've been able to learn a lot doing different kinds of theology by just making making an episode.
¶51Even it's on like a new topic. It's like, oh, cuz I got to learn it well enough to share with other people. I'm sure the same thing's happened to you. It's like in order for you to debate, you have to know it in order to debate it. >> Yep.
¶52Exactly. >> And so, so if you get ready for like a debate, it's like, oh, now it's really in deep. >> Yep. If I learn a topic. Yeah.
¶53Okay. I I'll try that. I'll try Audible and see cuz I I like to take notes, too. Um what what else what has helped me I I listen to a lot of debates. >> Yeah.
¶54>> Especially in that era. I was listen Frank Turk debates, James White debates, um Anthony Rogers. That's that's this so this is when I'm starting to like uh get in see David Wood and and those guys pop up when I'm still going into the deity of Christ and then Zachar Nike pops up. >> The the Muslim apologist. >> Yes.
¶55I mean the big I mean the biggest one, you know. Show me one unequivocal verse, one unamiguous statement of what Jesus himself says. I am God worshiping me. >> That that dude and so but thousands of people >> thousands of people in the stadium filled out clapping him lift listing out verses off the top of his head and no unchallenged. And so he's looking like yeah no one can touch him but I'm so that's when David Wood and them they they come on um Jesus or Muhammad and they're making response videos to him.
¶56>> Yes. >> And I loved that. I say, "Yo, they they're different, you know, cuz they're actually they're they're dealing with objections with a different style, a different kind of um attitude, and they're dealing with a different group that has a different attitude. Like these guys were loud." >> Well, Muslim apologetics and Muslim apologists, it is the strangest thing to me because it's like, you think about it, a lot of it's similar to other Unitarians like, you know, Christ is not God, Trinity isn't true. But then I don't know, Muslims will have just like the oddest objections I've ever seen.
¶57>> I've come from I think I remember one Muslim I was dealing with said um you know the Bible's corrupted and there's parts where clearly are not true like when Jesus is overcoming uh Satan's temptations on the mountain. His he was saying something like uh this is not true. If if Satan came to me and tempt me, I would hit him with a bat and I would say get away from me Satan. Instead you're Jesus. He goes on a mountain hike with the devil.
¶58He's going hiking with the devil in the mountains. I'm like, what are you talking about? What are you? But it's like this idea they'll come in with these >> It's so funny with some Muslim objections. It's so like beyond what you're used to.
¶59You're like, I don't even know. I've never even heard this before. How do I respond to this? I don't know if that happens to you >> all the time, man. There there's so it it happens so much to where I got I I started noting it down.
¶60>> Yeah. >> I started noting it down. When a Muslim comes and gives me the most ridiculous objection or the most ridiculous thing that he says, I put it in what what I what I have is a red notebook. It's called the red book now. >> So, everybody's like, "Avery, publish the red book.
¶61Publish the red book." You know, >> and so I I note down the date and what they said exactly and they say the most outlandish things to where cuz I always I'm like, "Man, you can't make this stuff up." If I were to go to someone else and tell them, "Hey, man, I just did a three-hour stream and you wouldn't believe what this Muslim told me." and repeat it, they'll think I'm an Islamophobe. They'll think I'm just hating on like I I'm not making the stuff up. He said it, you know? >> Yeah. >> So, yeah, Muslims are are on another level.
¶62>> But it is it's it's interesting that it I think a way to try to compensate for the lack of of rigorous argument is like this sort of loud, boisterous uh you know, this this >> I dominate strong, you know. >> Yeah. I don't know what the the Arabic equivalent of the word machismo is, but there would be but there's there needs to be something like that to to define it. And I think and I think that's hard for a lot of people who want to do apologetics that they can do you think they can be kind of put off or intimidated by that attitude and they don't want to like engage Muslim >> 100%. Yeah.
¶63there. I've cuz you know there's people that transition over from debating atheists and academic >> scenarios to where when you when you gets to Muslims it's not really it's not academic anymore. It's more like kind of like a wrestling match. >> Yeah. >> Um you know there's there's not really intellectual integrity and honesty there to where there's honest concessions or honest acknowledgement of good points.
¶64It's not that's rare in dealing with Muslims, >> especially popular Muslim apocalypse. >> Forget it. you you won't you won't get it from >> what I've noticed and I don't know what you think of this as like a strategy. I feel like when I see them engage Christian apologists, their strategy tends to be something like this. >> Here's a bunch of problems of Christianity.
¶65I'm going to dump all these problems on you and you can't solve them. And look, Islam is really simple, so you should just be a Muslim. Y >> and I feel like that's their go-to game. Yeah. >> So for me, like if I were to debate him and I' I've offered with different Muslims to do a debate and they declined, one Muslim apologist I wanted, oh, we were going to he wanted to do a debate, one debate called Islam versus Christianity.
¶66So he wanted to do that and I said, "No, no, no. I'll do two debates. I'll do is Christianity true and is Islam true?" Yep. >> He wouldn't do it, >> of course, >> because in the because then I could at least focus on the is the Islam. I could say look and I've said this before in my episodes.
¶67I said, "Even if I weren't a Christian, I would not be a Muslim." >> Mhm. >> And so there it's like, "All right, now you can't just evade and distract with here's problems Christianity. You give me a good reason to think Muhammad is a prophet and the Quran is inspired." >> Well, it talks about the It talks about the oceans being separated. Look at this. It becomes almost cuz like we have some of those shallow arguments for Christianity and like the top Christian apologists don't go anywhere.
¶68So what I'm referring to for our listeners is an argument called uh pre-scientific fornowledge. So the idea is and the thing is there's some Christians who will say the Bible's inspired because it talks about things ancient people could not have known about. And I don't like that argument. It's weak. >> But Muslims is I don't know from your perspective they rely on it a lot.
¶69>> It's golden for them. like and and and a lot of times it's it's been quite effective with certain Muslims in breaking down the walls of Islam because this is what they've been fed. >> They like this is these we have >> these golden tickets for why Islam is true and no one else has these you know uh scientific miracles and pre-scientific knowledge and discover like we're just now discovering this stuff. And when you when you break that down and show why that's a weak argument and why that doesn't work for a Muslim, >> it uh it it it tears it all down, you know, it it opens a wide door, not just a small, it opens up a wide door. There's another thing I've wanted to look into and I'd love to see your thoughts from what Muslims put forward because I find Christianity um has a lot going for it in terms of miraculous evidence especially [clears throat] like when you if you think like the central miracle of Christianity is the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
¶70The central miracle of Islam is just the Quran itself. >> Yep. >> And so but they're not equal in evidence at all. But then even after that you have lots of evidence. So you have uh Craig Keenir has a two volume book on miracles done within Christian churches.
¶71Yes. From a charismatic perspective you know you have lots of testimony of these things happening. We have from a Catholic perspective >> the miracle of Fatima. We have a lot of Catholic saints all these different miracles. I don't see Muslims really being able to appeal to the same kind of uh you know if Islam has been around for 1400 years 1400 years of miracles after Muhammad.
¶72I don't see them really doing that at all. Right. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, that none of that gets brought up.
¶73>> Yeah. Because I I because and I to me I think that's a glaring difference. >> Yeah. It's huge because one it shows you who like we actually have the living God on our side. Yeah.
¶74>> Right. We don't just have, you know, the historicity on our side and theology and lot. We God has been active. Yeah. >> In real time and has put his fingerprint on this movement, on this Jesus movement, on the church.
¶75Yeah. >> For 2,000 years. And we have so many instances where we can point to it with evidences with wide testimony to it. You know, we have a living God. That's that's a huge difference with uh with us in Islam.
¶76>> Yeah. The closest thing usually they'll try to maybe point to some miracles of Muhammad, but they're always late. >> Moonplitting. >> Moonsplitting is my favorite one. Who was it?
¶77It was uh Shake Uman in in California cuz I used to live in San Diego and he goes to Baloa Park. You did? >> I did. I want I wanted to Dude, I wanted to I sent a request to him to do a debate and then I never heard back. >> He He doesn't do it.
¶78He will never >> well he'll he'll get an unsuspecting like Christian at Baloa Park and he'll berate them like he was doing stuff like look here the genealogies of Jesus contradict each other so be a Muslim. That's him. >> But I'm like okay fine then come do a debate with me. Show me why Islam's true. And he did a whole he did a whole episode on the moon splitting.
¶79[laughter] >> He's trying to say like oh this prince in India saw the moon split and he became a Muslim. I'm like you mean that legend from like 300 years after the fact? Like come on. >> Yeah. But um but I'll I'll link by the hill in the description below.
¶80>> I have a whole episode. But yeah, or Muhammad riding, you know, riding the night flight to Medinaourney, the night journey. But it's all whereas the the resurrection is just within a few years in 1 Corinthians 15. >> And then also even especially with like the Catholic miracles I bring up to people, it's like we have immediate like in newspapers like immediate eyewitness stuff. So I I think and that's something I've been trying to get in more and I think maybe Christian apologists in general should focus on is like not just the resurrection but like look at what God has done in the body of Christ in the last 2 years.
¶81>> Yeah. >> And you compare that to every other religion. >> It's not the same. >> Yep. You don't have that.
¶82>> So is there anything else like when you've been engaging Muslims that has surprised you or like things you've had to change and adapt to? >> Oh 100%. So in my clubhouse days like this why I was was getting sharpened up, right? And so it was um it was actually a Muslim. I was asking you about like early church history earlier, right?
¶83>> It was a Muslim who taught me that early church history is important >> because he was dealing with a group of Muslims that only follow the Quran alone. They reject Hadith, right? >> Yes. >> And so he was asking them and challenging them and very irritated about it. He was like, you know, you don't well, how do you how did you get the Quran?
¶84Um, where do you get this from? How do you know what the chapters? How do you know to fast, pray, what month, yada yada yada, right? The details that the Quran doesn't give. They you don't know how to practice the religion without the hadith, >> which is true.
¶85>> And [snorts] so he was like, it's not the same, but it's it's very similar to to you, Avery, because you're a Protestant. >> You're a Protestant. And if I were to ask you, how did you get your cannon? >> If you're just if you're Bible alone and scripture alone, >> Yeah. how how did you get this stuff?
¶86You wouldn't be able to tell me. Yeah. You would have to then rely on you have to go into early church history to reconcile this, right? But then if you're denying early church history, but you're accepting what they what what you got from early church, >> I was like, >> huh, >> that's a good point. >> So now early church history is something that you want to look into.
¶87>> Early Yeah. It's it's it's very important. So this was a long time ago. This is like five years ago. Okay.
¶88Um, so but ev but ever since then it opened me up to, you know, listening to e Easter eastern orthodoxy and Catholicism and the historicity behind it, the traditions that are offered, right? And so >> um and once I opened that up, my knowledge of and doctrine sharpened up immensely. >> Yeah. >> You know, and the answers that we have for the Bible is is so vast. like we have answers.
¶89We have a chain of authorship and and connections to the apostles. I was amazed. >> And so like for right now, I want to get it to into my like make it second nature, you know, to where like I can go to I can explain the trinity like it's second nature in the Bible. I want to be able to do that with church fathers and yeah and church history. I want to get to that level there.
¶90>> I'm happy to help you with that. What I would recommend, and I'll send this to you afterwards, is I would just start with the apostolic fathers. So those are cuz if you try to like say someone's like, "Oh, I'm going to read all the church fathers." I'm like literally if we laid it out, it would fill up this entire table. >> It's like a million words, million and a half words. It's huge.
¶91But so the apostolic fathers though who are writing before the council of Nika, you can get that in about one volume. So it's like a pretty, you know, somewhat decent sized book, but a single book. And you can go through all of them. And it is fascinating to see uh what they cling to and you can really uh destroy the claim that like the divinity of Christ came up at the council of Nika. I mean you have Ignatius of Antioch talking about Jesus Christ our God in the year AD 107.
¶92>> But like for me as a Catholic then it's like okay if I love that these early church fathers that they are confident like Jesus is God and God you know God is not just one person. The father is God son is God spirit is God. they're not the same person >> and they're confident in that. Then for me, I was like like, "Oh, wow. Here's other things they're confident in." Like Ignatius also says, you know, Jesus is God and so when we receive the Eucharist, it's not just bread and wine.
¶93We're receiving the flesh and blood of our savior who's been crucified. Or like Ignatius will say, you know, he doesn't say follow the Bible because there there wasn't that collection yet. He's saying like follow the bishop. Yeah. >> Like Jesus Christ follows the father.
¶94So yeah, I'll send you a collection of the apostolic fathers, but if you just go through that, so I think for me, like I think it's so important now if we're dealing with Muslims and other people who try to rewrite history, try to say, "Oh, this was all invented in the 4th century." >> No, there's precursors to it. >> Yeah. >> But also like my challenge to Protestants would be if you're like, "Well, I believe in this can of scripture because we received this. the early church believed this in the 4th century, you know, and they have a special connection to the apostles. >> My my question would just be, all right, then ask yourself, what were the other things the early church was really confident on?
¶95>> Which in many cases will be disagreed with a lot of modern at least evangelicals. That would be my my thing to have you sort around as you think about when you read when you read it. >> Yeah, for sure. Yeah, that that's the uh I guess kind of dilemma you know that that uh a lot of people are in even with myself. It's like okay like you know this means that I would have to consider I have to consider these things you know what what did they like what you said what were they confident in what were they in common in you we wouldn't say that they are infallible or everything they say is law >> no what we like is so in in the catechism of the Catholic church it says that the church fathers are a witness of sacred tradition so we believe that God's word exists in a written and an unwritten form so just like in 2 Thessalonians 2:15 when Paul says stand firm and hold fast the traditions given to you by word of mouth or by letter.
¶96>> And so we believe the word of God, there's a written form in scripture, >> but also an unwritten form. Uh so these things would be sacred tradition like saying for example that uh there's no more public revelation after the death of the apostles. Like the Bible never explicitly says that that like it's ever going to like come to an end. And there's some charismatics who will say like the word of the Lord came to me and like they'll be continuationists of all kinds of things and say no there might be private revelations to people like God can always speak to anybody >> but there's ne but since the apostles there has never been anything where God speaks and it's meant for everyone and so that's why as a Catholic I can know the Mormons are definitely wrong. Jehovah's Witnesses are wrong because there there will be no more public revelation from the apostles until Christ returns again and brings an end to history.
¶97So, we would believe there's sacred scripture and sacred tradition and that the church is the custodian of both. And a lot of sacred tradition, honestly, the unwritten word of God is just here's how you interpret the word of God, the written word. >> Yeah. >> And [clears throat] so, that's I think >> the important elements there, but some of this stuff comes together a bit when it and I'm I really appreciate your openness like, okay, I got to really >> look at this and just be honest with it because you've kind of had on the question of like what is the church? You've kind of had some run-ins with with with [laughter] you've had some run-ins with with the orthobros lately who who they they don't quite take the disposition I'm giving to you right now.
¶98Correct. They take a little different. Okay, let me Oh, I'm just going [laughter] to ask who put you on the spot. Who's who's more um who's more annoying, the the the Muslims or the orthobros? >> Oo.
¶99Um I'll tell you I I I'll have to give it to the orthobros. I'll tell you why. I'll [laughter] tell you why. The Orthod bros are more annoying because they're claiming Christ. >> That always makes it harder, right?
¶100>> Yeah, that makes it harder. >> It's one thing when somebody's attacking you and they're not. This has happened to me a lot. Well, especially as a Catholic. >> I would say the people that that get under my skin the most when they attack me are other traditional Catholics because I'm like cuz it hurts more when it's someone who should be on your team.
¶101>> Exactly. >> That because if like a Muslim or an atheist attacks me, I'm like, >> you expect it? You're supposed to do that. >> Yeah. If the Jesus says, "If the world hated me, the world's going to hate you." It's like that comes the territory.
¶102But you'd expect if someone's on your team like, "Come on, don't do this to me." And so it's hard if someone claims to be a brother in Christ and then it's like, "Why are you treating why are you treating me?" And what's hard for me is I use the term orthob bro >> because I know a lot of awesome people who are Eastern Orthodox same >> and they are not on the internet a bunch and they'd be like, "What is this?" >> Yeah. Yeah. To be to be clear, the orthobros, for those listening, is a category of of certain people. There's a it's a certain category of people that act a certain way that's outside of the normal uh you know, Eastern Orthodox uh person that you would really meet because I have >> I have a large uh Orthodox following and support system and they condemn these weirdos over here. They're like, "These these guys don't represent us." Well, it's people.
¶103It's it's particular people. And I've seen it even with some Catholics and a few Protestants, but it's it's a way of acting where you don't care about Christian virtue. It's like you will slander, you'll abuse, you'll revile, >> uh you will talk and treat people in a way that's almost like pagan. It [clears throat] lacks just Christian charity to it. And it's fine to uh firmly say somebody's wrong.
¶104That's not the problem. The problem is just when you you are acting like a schoolyard bully. >> Exactly. Yep. The slander, the lies, the mocking and all that kind of stuff to who supposed to be a separate brethren.
¶105Um >> but you're I don't we're not brothers, you know. That's not what it feels like. That's not what it looks like. It looks like you're you're an enemy of mine. you you're not acting no different than these guys who who are not in Christ who are slandering and mocking and you know doing all that kind of stuff.
¶106>> And it doesn't have to be that way. Like for example, like like Gavin Ortland and I strongly disagree about stuff and we can sit down and we can have strong disagreements, >> but we we also treat each other kindly and we'll team up. Gavin and I did a twoon two debate against atheism. Yeah. >> And so, but we can do that because that's the thing.
¶107I think a lot of the Orthob bros or some more further extreme online Christians treat it as like everything has to be a fight and if I disagree with you, you're the enemy. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> But to me, it's like there's only one enemy. It's the father of lies.
¶108That's the only enemy. >> Yep. >> Everybody else is just, you know, ins snared by him to varying degrees. >> Yes. Exactly.
¶109And so then if you see other people in that way, it's like, okay, I would love to free you >> from that. And so they were so they were going and this is where they were going after you >> and their criticism of you. So I had to agree and disagree with it. And so it seemed to be they were mad. >> You can fill us in a little bit on that because I'm like, why are they getting they're basically mad at you for doing your apologetics to just help people believe in Jesus and they're like that's not enough.
¶110I don't know. So, you want to fill in more like what they got mad at you about? >> Yeah. So, well, really it started with um so Jay has been uh coming after me and trying to debate me ran like it was random out of nowhere. >> Jay Dyer.
¶111>> Yeah. Jay Dyer out of nowhere. And so, and ironically, the timing was interesting because it was right after I just humiliated Muhammad Joab and that was like going everywhere and blowing up literally right after that. That's when Jay is like, "Hey, God Logic debate me on what is the true church." >> Yeah. >> And it's it was interesting because I've never had a video or a stream where I had an opinion on what the true church was or gave any type of objection to either side of >> what you're doing is what we would call mere Christian apologetics.
¶112It's similar to like what William Lane Craig was doing or Josh McDow. It's like you want people to believe in God, believe in Jesus, believe in the Trinity, put their faith in Jesus. >> Yeah. You want to at least just get them to that. That's what you're focusing on.
¶113>> Yes. That's my That's what I do. Yeah. And so that's what they wanted to do. I I respectfully declined.
¶114Right. And so [clears throat] um then so I uh I I end one of one of my so not my streams, but my friend who I work with, he uh runs the second channel and he had a debate stream um hosting a debate and then you know on YouTube now you can send an audience somewhere, right? Yeah. And so he was uh trolling one of our other friends. He's a Protestant who uh tends to have criticisms against the Orthodox beliefs system.
¶115>> Um and so but to troll him cuz he was in the live. There was something I don't even I wasn't there so I don't even know what the joke was, but there was a joke going on. He said, "Okay, everybody, we're going to go to JP's stream and when we go there, oh uh JP didn't know how to work his technical stream and stuff like he was struggling and needed his help." Yeah. >> So he was like, "We're going to go to the stream and tell him that he doesn't know how to do his stuff or whatever." Had nothing to do with the title of his stream. Didn't even know what his stream was even set up yet.
¶116>> Sent everybody over there. And so that's what happened. You see, God Logic is sending people to an anti-Orthodox stream. They secretly hate Orthodox. See, they pretend to be with you, but they're really against you.
¶117You see, here's the proof. That's how it all started. I love that your orthobro impersonation is just [laughter] a slight variant of the Muslims. They they like, you know, similar. They're like that, man.
¶118I'm telling you, they're they're almost one and the same. >> Yeah. I I I think that cuz seeing here for you, it's like, hey, I'm just remotely connected to these people and they do that like look, you look at the body of your work, you're just trying to get people to believe in Jesus. And so my disagree with the orthodoric criticism of you is like for me >> like they would say it's it's useless to lead someone to Christ if you don't lead them to a particular church. I think that's absolutely false.
¶119A person is always better off if they come to believe in Jesus than if they aren't. Now as a Catholic I want them to fully believe what God has revealed. So I I that's not a stopping point for me. But I recognize [clears throat] it's better it's just better if someone is validly baptized and they have the Holy Spirit dwelling within them. it's just better for that person and then hopefully God can lead them into the fullness of of the truth.
¶120So that's why I would totally disagree with them. It's like, no, I love when there are Protestants who are saying, look, I want to, and for me as a Catholic, by who say, I want to leave people to Jesus, cuz for me as a Catholic, honestly, I get kind of like embarrassed when I look at a lot of other Catholics who do apologetics, it's like that they're not interested or Orthodox too sometimes where it's like they're not interested in just leading people to Jesus. It's like [clears throat] I want to refute Protestants, I want to refute Catholics, I want to refute Orthodox. There's a place for that. But like the vast majority of in America, like the vast majority is is non-religious.
¶121>> Like the second largest religion in the world is Islam. >> Like and we're fighting with each other. It's important stuff. But like like the people you're mentioning like for what you're learning from like how to defend like the trinity >> like I do get embarrassed. I'm like man we've got really solid like Catholic theologians that do that but where are the apologists who are just like bringing their agame on this?
¶122So that's why I want like my very first book I wrote was answering atheism and then I did a pro-life book. So it's like >> I want like if a Catholic who is good at like arguing with Protestants or Orthodox, you should be even better when you argue with an atheist or Muslim. Exactly. And usually it's the reverse. Yep.
¶123>> And so I'm embarrassed by that. >> Yeah. They they have every every objection in the book against a particular denomination. Um but when the actual faith is challenged, they can't really break stuff down or handle the criticism, handle the scrutiny or handle like the level of objection. It's crazy.
¶124>> Yeah. >> So with me, man, I work with Catholics. I work with orthodox. Yeah. >> I work with Protestants.
¶125>> And I learn so much from >> uh whoever is, you know, more seasoned than I am. >> I learn from everyone. And uh I I never can like I'm about unity. Um, I I love I just I I think we're so much more powerful when we are united and can respectfully disagree on things without it splitting us up. Like I I you know I know that you and I would have disagreements and I know for a fact that you can teach me so much, Trent, and I would I'm a I'm a sponge.
¶126You you teach me, I'll learn I'll learn it. I'll absorb it and I'll study it. That's how I am, you know. And so, uh, our disagreements in my eyes, your brother in the faith would never ever split us up. Yeah.
¶127Never. It's like like I I see the body of Christ as scripture tells like you guys are my family. You guys are literally my brothers and sisters. I will fight for y'all. I do fight for us, you know?
¶128And so to get the energy from them >> um that they're giving me, it's it was weird >> and like dang, like what what's up with you guys? But that this is particular group of people, you know. So you're going to have though you're humans are humans regardless. Humans are going to be humans fallen, whatever. May God, you know, help them.
¶129But I I that's why I I I don't let that distract me. Sure. I I I keep doing what I'm doing >> there. But there is one part of their criticism I I agree with a little bit. And I'm out of here.
¶130>> Right. [laughter] There you go. Well, let's thank you for joining us everyone. Sure to go trendpodcast.com. And here here's the crit where I would agree with is I think mere Christianity is a good starting point.
¶131But I think a lot of pe people in your position who might be doing apologetics in this way might be thinking, "All right, look, I think at the very least I'm just going to lead people to the essential doctrines and then if you guys want to argue about the non-essentials, that's fine. We as long as you do it charitably >> and I'll lead I just want to lead people here's the the the bare minimum the essentials. You got to believe this to be a Christian. These are these these are the essential things. What I worry is that Protestantism doesn't have a mechanism for determining what that is.
¶132And that it's not even just, you know, believe in God, believe in Jesus. Because then it's like, you know, well, how many, you know, does Jesus have what does the incarnation mean? Does he have a human mind? Does he have a human will? You know, because we have to get that all right to make sure you're Christian.
¶133Um things about original sin, about moral issues. That's where I would be concerned is like, okay, we I'll just lead them to the essentials. But the problem is the Bible never tells us what the essentials are. >> That's where I get a little concerned. >> Okay.
¶134>> I don't know what you think of that. >> So I I felt like So are you saying like the Bible doesn't say have a section where it's like hey here are the essentials to be labeled Christian. >> Boom boom boom boom boom. Yeah. >> It's it's more like scattered in there and you you >> people have to kind of make arguments and interpret like this is an essential thing and someone else say actually it's not essential.
¶135you can disagree on that but then it it's it's really not clear in that way. So that's that's one element of it. >> So let me ask you this. Okay. Um so before I knew what a church father was >> I I believed in the trinity.
¶136>> I knew I knew it was biblical. >> Yeah. >> The incarnation. Now the depths of the incarnation not so much. Right.
¶137>> Whether Christ has two minds or one mind, stuff like that. >> Sure. Um, but I did know he had two natures. Yeah. >> He was both man and and God truly, >> right?
¶138Um, >> I knew I knew these things without knowing what a church father was, would you say? But like the these are essentials. Yeah. Right. But are you saying that not all of the essentials are fleshed out or are you saying that that >> it's Well, I agree people can find some of them and that's where I think a lot of Protestants will agree like here's like four or five things and they'll all pretty much agree on that.
¶139>> But the problem is they can agree on a handful of things. Yeah, these are essential. But not saying this is what determines what is and isn't essential. that it ends up being just kind of common consensus usually from just a shared denominational tradition that people receive because I think a lot of people believe in the trinity believe in the incarnation >> because that was the tradition they received within their own denomination and then of course we ask where did that tradition come from and if you follow that that's where we end up the question of the fathers and the history of the church you know unless you think you unless you think Christianity started in like the 70s when your church was founded or something like that >> so I think that that's one of the elements there. >> Yeah.
¶140>> Um I think the other thing is that as an apologist, one I think it to get people to believe it in the Trinity, to believe in Christ and God, I think is so important. And I don't think people should overstep themselves. People can specialize. Like you've got some people who just be like, I just do Islam or I just do the resurrection or I just do Jehovah's Witnesses. So, I'm not saying people need to be able to do everything, but I think an apologist should always have this attitude being I want to lead people not even necessarily to be Christian, but to believe everything God revealed.
¶141>> And it doesn't mean they have to do it personally. So, they might be like, "Hey, I I do Jehovah's Witnesses, but here's where I'd recommend you go to get everything God revealed." >> Yeah. Yeah. I think and especially for yourself, I think it'd be good for you to to be able to answer that question because you could lead people to the trinity, the incarnation, but the Christian faith, the faith, what God revealed is is so much more than that. >> I think we have a responsibility.
¶142So me as a Catholic, I would point them to the catechism of the Catholic Church. >> Okay. >> Which is all the church's teachings. I think every apologist should at least be able to say if you want to find the, you know, the fullness of what God revealed, >> what it means to be Christian. >> Yeah.
¶143Well, not even just to be because there's people who can be Christian, but they're they missed certain teachings, certain c certain doctrines. Like we talked earlier about people might disagree about soul sleep, for example. You could be a Christian and you're just wrong if you think that the soul is unconscious until the second judgment. I was I assume you'd probably think that. >> Say that again.
¶144Uh >> you could be a Christian, but you're mistaken about the doctrine of soul >> sleep. Mhm. But your your goal would be not just to be Christian, but you know everything God revealed. You under you're not mistaken about these things God revealed. >> Right.
¶145Right. Doctrine. >> Yeah. And so being able to point them to it. And for me, some people might say, "Well, yeah, here's my apologetics, and if you want the fullness God revealed, here's the Bible." Then it's like, hopefully you read it right because people can read it.
¶146Look at Jehovah's Witnesses. A lot of other people they get to their errors because they take John 10:30 or, you know, John 14:6, father's greater than I, and they they read it wrong. Yeah. You know, that's where the problems show up. >> Yeah.
¶147I I agree with you. Um I I do believe that church is important, and [clears throat] I feel like that uh that is the job of a a a church like community. Yeah. >> Right. Um >> I I'm trying to work that kind of that stuff out, you know.
¶148Sure. >> Cuz I, you know, I don't I'm not everywhere. I don't know where everybody lives and where everybody's connected to, but Yeah. >> But what I would encourage you is to to dwell on this more that you don't have to cuz I think it's unfair for like someone like Jay to be like, "Dend the true church." Like that's not my thing. >> Yeah.
¶149>> But I do think it's fair for you to eventually be able to be like, "Hey, here's what I defend." >> And if you want if you want more full theology, go here. >> Yeah. Yeah. and then whatever denomination, whatever that might be, and you'll have to sort that out for yourself to be like, "Okay, well, what denomination >> has the fullness of what God has revealed at the very least, you can at least point them there. You don't have to defend it all.
¶150You don't have to be an apologist for everything, but you can be like, "I get it from here, >> you should you should go there, too, because that that's at least like if you trust me on a lot of stuff, I'd point you here." So, that's what I would encourage for you. If that sounds [clears throat] >> that sounds like it's wisdom, I I accept it. >> All right. and I'll I'll give you some resources and we'll uh we'll check that out for sure. Is there um is there anything else you're working on now kind of going in the future?
¶151Any other projects you'd be interested in sharing with people? >> I'm uh I'm getting into the cults. So, I'm actually back on Jehovah's Witnesses now. I feel like the Lord has been pulling me there and it it has been immediately effective, Trent. Like Jehovah's Witnesses, I'm getting so many testimonies and a lot of them are coming to Christ.
¶152They're leaving the uh Watchtower Society. Some have left right on stream. We were just talking to a >> Jehovah Witness and this girl, her name is Lz. Yeah. Um who she has just accepted that Jesus is God in our last stream >> and um and accepting the personhood of the Holy Spirit.
¶153>> Um and she's excited to share this stuff with her parents, but she knows it's going to be tough. >> Yeah. >> So, but it's it's been effective. Yeah. Far more effective than I thought it would.
¶154I, you know, I thought it was going to be a lot of hard-headedness and stubbornness, but it's like God has been working on people's hearts there. >> Do you find helping people cultivate that personal relationship with Jesus can break them out of the cult? Because, you know, like one of my sound bites, if I talk to Mormons and they're like, you know, you want to be a Mormon, look at all this stuff. There's man-made doctrines and we're restoring the gospel, blah blah blah. One of my sound bites is just to say, look, I could never be a Mormon >> because I could not give up the relationship I have with Jesus Christ right now.
¶155Because Mormons believe that you should not pray directly to Jesus. >> Whoa. >> Yeah. They they don't all Yeah. All prayer goes to heavenly father.
¶156>> So uh you have it's like you you don't pray directly or to the holy spirit >> you know to say look I cannot have I love the trinitarian god that I can have a full and complete relationship with the father son >> and with the spirit like I can pray come holy spirit fill the hearts of your faithful and kindle in them the fire of your love. Yes. >> But for but for Jehovah's Witnesses like no only Jehovah God >> for Mormons only only heavenly father >> you know not only you know Elohim they they consider Jesus Jehovah >> but but it's Elohim it's heavenly mother and father you know so I so it's like for me like just to say like look >> when you know my savior like I do because then when you go back to Jehovah's Witnesses it's like it's such an impoverished relationship you have with Jesus because when you take away him being the true God, you just can't have that same relationship with them anymore. >> Yeah, it it was Yes. 100% about the relationship with with Jesus.
¶157In talking with a lot of them, they are realizing how much of how much distance they have with the son. >> Yeah. >> And they're it's it's convicting them, you know, and seeing how much the son is worth and how we are to honor him the same way we honor the father. We are he we are to glorify him and magnify him. Yeah.
¶158>> And they don't. and they think that that you know they're doing the good by just you know paying attention to the father when the father points to the son and vice versa son points to the father and the holy spirit glorifies the son you know um one one of the things and I I heard this multiple times yeah is that with Jehovah's Witnesses they don't they actually don't take part in the eukarist you know when they do the communion they don't they don't eat the bread and drink the the wine okay they don't because they they're not supposed to they're watch society Only the anointed class I think is is able to do that if them. >> And so >> those used to be the only guys that got to heaven too. Then they had to change that. >> They had, you know, extend the extend the party invites, you know.
¶159>> Yeah. >> But um but that has that [clears throat] bothered a lot of them. They were like, "Wait, why am I not taking part in this?" Because this is what my Lord and Savior did for me. He broke his body for me. He shed his blood for me.
¶160Why am I not taking part in this when he this is what he told us to do? >> Yeah. And that woke a lot of them up. Yes. Is when they see like, hold on a second.
¶161>> This ain't right. >> Yeah. >> When he tells us to do this and to do this in remembrance of him, but I'm not even taking part in it. >> Yeah. >> And so that has affected a lot of them when they realize that distance.
¶162>> That was just a few years ago. I remember this controversy because before there was the claim that you know onlyund that there was going to be a paradise earth but to go to heaven was only this 144,000 people and it was restricted to people who were born during a certain time in history you know during the Christ invisible I I forget all the parameters related to it but it was only restricted to certain number of people like born a while ago and as those people are dying off like when they go to the general assemblies only like oh he's taking the Eucharist that means he's part of that anointed class everyone's It's like, yeah, it's like why why would why would Jesus exclude me like this? They know deep down and God is speaking to them saying like I would never exclude you. I want all people to receive because John 6 is clear. Unless you eat my unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life within you.
¶163It's for everybody. >> Yeah. >> And then then Yeah. So I love that that for them to be able to see that and to come to know who the real Jesus is. >> Yeah.
¶164>> You know what's interesting also with Jehovah's Witnesses? I don't know cuz you have a charismatic background. I don't know if this is helpful when you're talking with some of them cuz their spiritual life when you look at their Kingdom Hall and like their services, it's very spiritually dry. Listen, I I've been in quite a few of their services and I forced myself to because, you know, I was on a mission, >> but my goodness, I mean, dryness, no type of individual [clears throat] thinking, no like no true worship from the heart, you know, it's just >> it's like reading articles. >> Yes.
¶165Reading articles. And it's so they'll read the article line and ask the question based on the article line that they just and it's basically like a um uh Jesus Jesus was led into the wilderness. What were where was Jesus led? The wilderness. Yes.
¶166The wilderness. That's what it's like. There's no >> I see why you'd want to call it a cult. >> Yeah. My scary.
¶167It's just, you know, massaging the brain enough to just just take in the information, stay committed, go out, get more people. >> But that that wears you down if all you don't have that rest in the Lord that the B that scripture promises. >> Yep. And so, but a lot of them, they're they're trained to evade. They're uh trained to follow.
¶168It's watchtow. It's it's similar to Muslims how it's, you know, our scholars say this, you know, the taps says this, our commentator says this, our scholar, our scholar scholar. For them, it's the watchtowwer says this. This is how they they say this. The watchtower.
¶169The watchtower. The watchtowwer. >> But when you press them though, what's funny though is and I think this is important to press them on. They've had to admit that because the watchtower and the leadership has been wrong about predicting the end of the world so many times. I think I have an episode on this.
¶170I'll link to it below uh for people to watch. But they used to they had a magazine uh published back in like the 60s and 70s and it was talk and it would made references to how saying like this generation is the one that's going to see like the end of the world and then like you know that that things are going to pass away in this generation. They had it in the banner. Yeah. Yeah.
¶171And then like in the 2000s they they removed it cuz they realized it was like cuz it was like 1914 1975 and they would keep and eventually it's like with dude they keep getting it wrong and they say well you know the watchtower is not and they they admit it's not infallible. It airs but it it points us. I'm like why are you trusting then? Why are you trusting it? >> Yeah.
¶172That new light you know light is sh they like to say we got new light. We got new light. You know >> I need to remember that next time I screw with my wife. She's like why didn't why didn't you take out the trash? I'm like, I got new life.
¶173>> New life. >> I got new life. >> Give it to me, you know. >> Oh, well, I I won't be mad at you then. [laughter] >> Yeah, right.
¶174>> That'll work. >> That's great. All right. So, I'm excited to see, you know, just just more of that, what you're going to be bringing in from everything. And then, yeah, maybe we could um whoever go out, we're in the same city, we could do a tag team, maybe.
¶175>> I would I would love that. I'd be honored. I I So, you you were saying you do like pro you were doing pro-life. >> Yeah. So, I would go to college campuses.
¶176So, how I got started like how you just you were doing the chats then you would go to Jehovah's Witnesses on the college campus. >> I would go to college campuses. This is like 2000 basically from like ' 06 to like 2010 is when I was doing this. We'd set up pro-life exhibits and then we would talk [clears throat] to people >> and what's funny is we talk about abortion, but we would also be like, you know, well, you're Christian. Why are you Christian?
¶177I'm like, I'm glad you asked. And then we were we were off to the So, I do miss miss that from the older days. I'd love to do some more of that. >> So, I plan to do a like college tour next year. >> All right.
¶178>> And obviously, we're going to hit the schools in Dallas and stuff. I would love for you to come. I'll let you know way ahead of time. So, you know, >> let me know. I'll clear the calendar.
¶179Yes, sir. >> We'll do tag team with people. We'll talk to atheists, talk Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons. >> We'll get it done. It's going to be fun >> for sure.
¶180Yeah. >> All righty, sir. I love it. Where can people go to check out more of your work? >> Yep.
¶181Uh, you can find me on God Logic Apologetics on YouTube, Instagram, and Tik Tok. Both God Logic. Just put it in there. And uh, yeah, subscribe. Hit that like button.
¶182>> All right. Thank you guys so much for check out Avery's work. Check out his work at GodLogic. Thank you guys so much for watching. And I hope you have a very blessed day.