¶1Is Trump the US president [music] that Christians need Eric and Ross? Welcome. >> I wondered if this was a man who worshipped power. >> But you changed your mind. You kind of got converted.
¶2>> But do you think Trump cares about the people trying to restore Christian civilization if they don't cater to him and feed his ego? Of course he doesn't. >> I guess I would I would agree that said things that that have have been unhelpful. >> Suspect your position, Ross, is a little stronger than that. >> I see this as an existential crisis.
¶3The [music] satanic wickedness of the Democratic Party. >> Each party thinks of the other in the terms [music] that Eric just described. I have I guess moved partway to what I would take to be Eric's position in that >> the hope of ever overturning Roe v. Wade would have [music] been kicked 100 years into the future. >> Religious groups had every reason to say Donald Trump has the right position on abortion.
¶4Then when [music] Trump pivots >> Catholic bishops who criticized the way that he's slashed US aid and so on. >> I think the Catholic bishops are unbelievably corrupt [music] and do not represent the Catholic Church. >> We're going to send people a miserable Central American prison without trial. [music] And Trump did that. And that was wicked.
¶5>> I'm embarrassed to say I don't know enough about it really to comment. I trust Donald Trump ultimately. I do trust him. >> Why do you give him grace? >> Hello, I'm Justin Brierley.
¶6Welcome along to the show. So pleased to be joined today by Eric Metaxas and Ross Douthat. Eric is an author, speaker, and radio host. His new book Revolution examines the events that led to the birth of America 250 years ago. And he's been an ardent supporter of Trump in his first two presidential terms.
¶7Ross Douthat is a New York Times columnist, host of the Interesting Times podcast, and author of the book Believe: Why Everyone Should Be Religious. He's been critical of the Trump administration. Well, we're here at the ARC Conference 2026 and both Eric and Ross have joined me to debate the question, is Trump the US president that Christians need? Eric and Ross, welcome. >> Thank you for having us.
¶8It's a pleasure. >> I'm really looking forward to this. Thank you both for being so willing to come in, I think as friends, to have a a conversation. >> Who said we were willing? Who said [laughter] we were We showed up.
¶9>> Thank you for coming at the point of a gun. >> Yeah. >> to come in and have this conversation. But seriously, I think you guys go back a while, don't you? Where When did you first bump into each other?
¶10Do you remember? >> Uh I hate to bring this up because I know I embarrassed the young man. Ross was 12. >> [laughter] >> And uh I was friends with his mom and um we would hang out and she had this delightful uh pair of children and Ross was the eldest and I still can't believe that that's true. But I I the privilege of knowing this man >> We watched Jeopardy together at age at age 12.
¶11>> Actually, that's right. That's the one thing I remember that we watched at Jeopardy. >> It made us made us the men we are today. Alex E. Alex Trebek era.
¶12>> Childhood friends and and and and >> Well, he wasn't I was I was I was hardly a child. I was hardly a child. No, I think I would I think I was I must have been about 27 or 28, but an extremely youthful 27. >> student. >> No, no, no.
¶13I never I never I was an English major. I graduated as an English major Yale and never >> You never got >> I never looked back. No, I was a floundering uh want-to-be writer at that age. >> Which is why I confused you with a grad student. >> He confused me with a grad student.
¶14That's true. That's right. So, yeah. So, I was uh I was I'd been out of Yale for years, but there was some Christian group that would meet in New Haven and your mother was among them and we became friends and there you go. >> A great great that you to be friends even as maybe your political views have diverged a little bit over the years.
¶15Obviously you you share >> Hardly worth mentioning. >> Hardly worth mentioning. You share obviously a a common faith. You're both Christians. Um Ross, you're a Catholic.
¶16>> I don't consider Catholics Christian. >> Okay. Okay, well maybe we'll >> That's what we're debating here, right? >> We're we're not debating that actually. Oh, okay.
¶17>> I'm afraid that would be >> a different podcast studio. >> that one for another conversation. >> That was that was a joke for the audience by the way, yeah. >> People will know that you meant >> I don't know. Many many don't.
¶18>> We shouldn't take you too seriously. But we are going to take this issue seriously today asking Trump, you know, he's been the big kind of world-shattering change on the global scene of the last 8 to 12 years. Um and both of you have taken different perspectives on this. I mean, how have your views changed maybe? Cuz I know that when Trump first appeared on the scene, I remember listening to you back in the day, Eric, and you were rather skeptical about this man, but obviously you're you've come to see him as a genuinely good force for American politics in the world.
¶19>> I wouldn't go that far. >> Okay. >> No, I would go that far, but I think >> Yes, yes, you would. >> I was Yeah, I know, I was sure I would and I will and I do, but um No, I was initially very skeptical, uh more than skeptical, hostile because I grew up in New York and I saw him the way the Spy magazine of the '80s saw him as a short-fingered vulgarian, as a sort of and as an example, a cultural example, of what not to be. Um and then I think as he put his toe in the political waters, having [clears throat] just written my book on Bonhoeffer, at least a few years before, I I wondered uh aloud, but not in print, whether he was uh the kind of a figure that I think many of his detractors today think of him as.
¶20Uh I I I wondered if was a man who worshipped power uh and who scorned weakness, which is a perfect description of what it is to be anti-Christian, really, because Christians are meant to um reach out to the to the powerless and and and so he struck me as as maybe being that uh on a on a on a large level and it really concerned me. I remember when he he made uh his very unfortunate mean-spirited comment about John McCain uh that I I I prefer people who don't get caught. I don't know if anybody remembers these things, but uh I'm sure Bros remembers it. I said it was the most I I publicly on X said it is the most despicable thing I think I've ever heard uttered in public life. I was just outraged by it because I thought of McCain uh you know, as a war hero tortured in the Hanoi Hilton.
¶21And for anybody to say something like that is absolutely despicable, was despicable. And so that really was that formed my initial uh take on Trump. >> But you changed your mind. You kind of got converted. >> Um $7,000 will do a lot.
¶22>> [laughter] >> I um >> Goes a long way in New York City these days. >> Actually not, but um yeah, it's funny. I I There There was an initial uh brouhaha over his uh religious ignorance and I can't remember where it started, whether it was Newsweek or I don't know uh CNN, but but but people were asking him questions about faith and in typical Trump fashion, he was not really answering. He was or he was giving answers. I think he was widely mocked for saying, you know, 1 Corinthians or something like that.
¶23So, there was a kind of a pile-on about his his his faith ignorance and I think somebody from CNN in a follow-up to that said I'll I'll never forget this. Said, "So, and this is a very dumb question, but it's it's almost it's bizarrely dumb, but it was like, so, you know, uh of the uh of the two Testaments, you know, the Old Testament and New Testament, which do you prefer?" Why would anybody Why would any journalist like Jim Acosta ask a question like I I I don't know. But anyway, he asked the question and Trump's answer was I think about even. At the moment, I thought that is the most brilliant, bizarre response. Anyone in the world could come up with that.
¶24AI could never come up with that. It's just I think about even. Like because it's it's it's as absurd as the question. But at the time, I thought it would be fun to write a piece for the New Yorker mocking Trump's In other words, his view of the Bible. So, I wrote a piece that the New Yorker published called Trump Bible verses and it was tweets when they were only 140 characters and they were Bible verses kind of each of them twisted in some kind of a Trumpian fashion.
¶25Like a good wife who can find, I found three. #TrumpBible or whatever. You know, it was a And so, I was I was making fun of him and his views and his religious ignorance. And in the course of writing that article, and I'm not making this up, which is the only thing the New Yorker has ever published by me, I felt like I was a because I've written a lot of comedy, I felt like somebody writing comedy for like a Bob Hope or something. Like you find their voice or a Jackie Mason.
¶26You find the rhythm because that's what you're trying to do. And in the course of that process of writing this piece for the New Yorker, I found myself having an affection for this man. I found myself thinking he's a New York original. He's got this angle into things which I can understand how it would rub some people the wrong way, but I find it extremely entertaining. And bizarrely, that was what began to turn me to say, I think I've been missing something about him.
¶27>> Well, we'll we'll dig into more about why you eventually came to believe he was the right man to be leading the country. Ross, um how has your thoughts on Trump evolved from when he first put his hat in the ring and and >> So I I was I suppose I started where Eric started and remained there pretty steadily through the entire 2016 So I was sort of a characteristic um never Trump conservative journalist issuing dire warnings about the threat that he posed to the American Republic. And to the extent that my views have changed, I have I guess moved partway to what I would take to be Eric's position in that I now feel that the Trump era was sort of inescapable to some degree and under God's providence to some degree, that Trump really is a kind of you know, in a in a somewhat absurdist Trump Bible versus kind of way, a world historical figure who represents in his own person the breakdown of an establishment, the breakdown of a consensus and that yeah, that that we weren't you know, we weren't going to simply sort of put him away, seal up the box and say, "Ah, you know, we've dusted this dusted and done." Or something like vaguely [laughter] vaguely sorted, you know, see it's sorted. Right, yeah. Anyway, no, I'll stop.
¶28I'll stop. See you say it's sorted. Right. So, so yeah, so I've I've I I have a I I have a kind of acceptance of the Trump phenomenon as representing something that was inescapable, has showed up in many different contexts and many different countries including this one, right? And that that Trump is a kind of in a way an ideal embodiment of a populist rebellion that in some form was inevitable.
¶29So, that's the change. What is resilient and we can get into this a bit is that well, I think that Trump is absolutely a power worshiper with total contempt for human weakness and, you know, vaulting vaulting uh un-Christian ambitions and is a a great man of history in some sense while also being a bad man and more importantly a man who is not capable of building a new order out of the rubble of the old one. I think there was about a month or two around the end of the 2024 election and the beginning of the second Trump administration where I allowed myself to fantasize a bit about the idea that, "Okay, Trump 2.0 was actually going to build something new and effective." I wrote a a column saying, "You know, if you fuse elements of, you know, what J.D. Vance represents, a certain kind of Catholic populism with what Elon Musk represents, a sort of kind of techno-futurism, you could imagine a kind of new model of American politics and a place in which Christians, religious conservatives could find a natural home. And I don't think that's at all what Trump 2.0 has delivered.
¶30I think there's a kind of reversion to a corrupt and self-aggrandizing mean with Trump that you can't get away from. So, even if you accept him, you could say maybe he's the president we deserve. >> Okay. >> Right. But, I don't think you can go all the way to saying he's the president that we need.
¶31>> Okay. Well, just before we get into the conversation on your differences here, uh something I like to do with these conversations is try to get each guest to try to articulate the other perspective. Some people call it steel manning the other. Um and it's just a fun way of actually making sure we understand each other. We can hear each other.
¶32Um so, uh in in a sense, um Ross has done that for you. Um so, maybe you perhaps you just need to repeat what back to him what you already said, but I'll start with you, Ross. Could you try to articulate what you why you what Eric believes, why Eric believes Trump is the president that Christians need, right? >> So, to be Trumpian, right? There are two testaments.
¶33>> Mhm. >> They're about even, but the Old Testament is the one that contains lots of examples of political leaders. And if you read the Old Testament, you will find in those political leaders a lot of very, very imperfect human beings, right? And sometimes they're imperfect to a degree that God walks away from them and washes his hands of them, but in some cases God sticks with the imperfect leader from Moses down to King David and beyond. And it is often the case that someone who commits adultery or you know, makes makes egregious foreign policy blunders in you know, whatever sort of all the what whatever that implies in the Old Testament context.
¶34Um or otherwise fails to be a truly virtuous person, nonetheless can be chosen as God's instrument in a particular time and place to do a particular work for the sake of God's people. I think Eric would say that we only See if he says it himself, right? But that we are in a moment where there are so many different enemies arrayed against Christianity, against traditional religion. Most of them present and dominant in the progressive coalition. That and you have sort of a lot of men who maybe are men and women who may maybe more virtuous Christians than Trump, but don't have his political capacities and his political skills.
¶35And so Trump for all his flaws and all his lack of virtue has been chosen by God to play a distinctive role in preventing us from sliding into some kind of um soft totalitarian woke despotism um or [snorts] at the very least to prevent the United States from ending up in the mess that a lot of Western European countries have ended up in. How's that? How does that sound, Eric? >> I've never heard uh the brilliant Ross quite so brilliant as now. >> That [laughter] but it was truly >> It's really uh amazing.
¶36>> Voices from on high speaking in my >> No, I I honestly I think that's a extremely well put. The only difference I would say is that I don't think it's about him being a president for Christians. I mean I think a true Christian doesn't care about a president for Christians. A true president a true Christian would care about a president for all the people. In other words, that it would be our agreement I think as Christians that it's not simply about giving us what we want, but about being a good president, which goes beyond giving us what we want.
¶37But generally speaking I I think that's about right. Yeah. I mean I I I think that's well well put. Articulation of what I think. Yeah.
¶38>> Um okay, Eric. Can you do the same? Can you channel Ross and >> I'm sure I can't. >> Well, give it a go and see see see see >> think Ross Ross did it a moment ago and I think um the the you know, the Trump's lamentable lack of civility sometimes is generally unhelpful, seems generally unhelpful and it seems to harm his own ability to get things done. Um and it does it it has helped create uh a more vulgar culture except that I think you know >> Wait, no, you have to stick with me.
¶39>> Well, that no, but that's kind of what I'm saying is that I I I think but I but I I find myself frankly agreeing with that. Um so I I think it's just an issue of degrees because I I I do agree with that and then the question is what are the alternatives? In other words, is Trump an example of the culture or or is he helping the culture to become more vulgar? And that's >> Can Can you anticipate yeah, where where where Ross lands on this then? >> Well, I think Ross said it a moment ago that uh and and again strangely I I guess I would I would agree that that he has in fact often times said things that that have have been unhelpful and that that is a you know, an apt criticism.
¶40It's it's sad. >> But I suspect your position Ross is a little stronger than that. It's not just that Trump is unhelpful. I mean, would you go further than than how Eric has characterized it? >> Yeah, yes.
¶41I I think that you have to go you would go one degree further at least on sort of just how to analyze morally the way Trump engages in public. I think it's insufficient to say that it's unhelpful and here I think Eric already made a version of the case himself by talking about his own reaction to the John McCain comments. That that kind of over-the-top personal attack on your enemies is just the way Trump operates. Now >> Yeah. Yeah.
¶42>> it's also true that Trump is a forgiving man, right? He can attack you as the worst traitor to America in all of history one day and then you can be back in his good graces the next. And you could argue that that's a manifestation of Christian charity. I think it's a manifestation of a man who likes submission and appreciates submission and will forgive anything as long as submission is ultimately delivered. But so that's but that that is one element.
¶43Yes, I would go further than Eric and say it's not enough to say that the Trumpian style is unhelpful and is actually often straightforwardly wicked and toxic and un-Christian. Secondly, there's just the question of what what are you actually getting from the presidency? And look, Trump here is not over, you know? That's at least two years and a few months to go. Who knows, you know?
¶44Who who knows? Um maybe AI will enable sort of Trump to live forever as as an engaged figure in in our politics. But repeatedly under Trumpian conditions you have had a failure to build the thing build the successful majority coalition, the legislative agenda, like the thing that you want from a president who is doing more than just owning the libs and shaming the libs. And you also have had repeatedly patterns where there Trump will win and there'll be sort of a shock and a moment of reassessment among his enemies, right? This is this is the helpful and healthy part.
¶45And Trump Trump winning makes people who don't like Trump reassess what's going on in the world. And And in an ideal world, sort of correct for things that they were doing wrong. But then, as Trump governs, or as Trump engages, people who don't like Trump stop reassessing and start becoming radicalized. So, like Trump was elected in part because of progressivism in the US veering far to the left and wokeness emerging. But, Trump's own presidency then turbocharges it, right?
¶46You get the peak the peak of um woke power in America happens while Trump is in the White House, right? Starting in the summer of of 2020. I'm not sure if that's going to happen again, but at the very least you have to say, well, that didn't seem to work out all that well for the values of Trump supporters. And here we are in the second term, and Trump's approval ratings are again, you know, 38, 39%. Um Yeah, that's I I've I've said enough there.
¶47>> And anything you'd like to respond to that? >> I guess I just wonder whether uh what what the options are. In In other words, I think that Tru My observation has been that Trump drives his critics crazy because he doesn't do what Republican presidents traditionally have done, which is make an effort to I mean, George Bush uh did it to to somehow bring the temperature down. Um >> He doesn't bring the temperature down. >> No, that's what I'm saying.
¶48But but but but I'm going to but but but my But I I think it's because he doesn't believe that that actually works. In other words, I think what it really looks like to him and to me to some extent is appeasement. In other words, the mainstream media looks at it as oh, how wonderful. He's being civil. But I think your average American, your working class American says, well then he's not fighting for us.
¶49He's backed down. He's let them get away with this and this and this and this and the country's going to hell. We want somebody who's actually going to fight even if it means enraging the other side. What options do you have? >> Hi there.
¶50If you're enjoying today's video, do give it a like and subscribe to my channel. And why not let me know what you think in the comments below. And to make sure you don't miss any of these fantastic conversations, sign up for my newsletter. As a thank you, I'll send you the first chapters of both my books, The Surprising Rebirth of Belief in God and Why I'm Still a Christian, for free. The newsletter link is with the info.
¶51Enjoy the rest of the show. Does that mean that does that justify in a sense some of the quite controversial statements he puts out on his Truth Social and and that kind of thing? >> Um It certainly doesn't justify all of them. I think it justifies some of them. In other words, I think that he has made a calculation that that is a path forward.
¶52And it remains to be seen whether it is. But I think that for example, I mean what you were referencing a moment ago, the summer of 2020, you know, you what we have seen is the left becoming far more radicalized. And so I think there is a real question whether that's a good thing or a bad thing. In other words, because if they In other words, there's some idea that oh, maybe we can kind of pull them back. But I think uh I'm not really uh sanguine about that.
¶53In other words, I I I think that they have no intention ever of pulling back, and that what Trump has done, whether uh advertently or inadvertently, is forced them to reveal themselves, and that that can be helpful. It's clarifying to see if you're actually a Marxist, oh, okay, so that's that really is your position. There's something helpful because it gives you a contrast. >> believe Trump's done that by actually turning up the heat rather than dialing it down, in that sense? >> To some extent.
¶54And again, I think some of that is uh is probably unintentional, but it's kind of a it's just part of who he is, that he he represents something, and the other side gets outraged, and they find themselves becoming more radical and saying more radical things um because they can't help themselves, in a way. >> I think there's truth to that. I I I mean, and I think it connects to what I was saying earlier about how my own views have changed. I I do think Trump has played the whole Trump phenomenon has been revelatory in lots of different ways. Uh I think it's been negatively revelatory about some of his supporters, but I think it's also been negatively rev- revelatory about some of his enemies.
¶55And these range from figures sort of associated with the center and the center-left establishment to sort of the more radical parts of the American left, where Trump sort of tearing things down creates a permission structure in which other people go further and further, and you do learn something. You do sort of see some truths about American politics and culture. Institutions become more themselves, and then there are opportunities out of that, right? So, I write a lot about American universities, right? And sort of the battles uh over ideology in academia.
¶56And, you know, Trump in his first term contributed to a profound radicalization in academic culture in the United States among students and faculty alike. But, Trump in winning again created sort of conditions in which it was possible for people running American universities to say, "Look, you know, we're clearly completely out of touch with where the country is. We take money from the government, we're publicly funded in some ways, we're at the mercy of a populist Republican if they want to attack us or, you know, file lawsuits against us and so on. And so, we need to adapt and sort of pull back from the brink and de-radicalize somewhat, right?" And that's That's a case where So, first Trump gave people permission to be more radical, and then he's given people permission to try and de-radicalize. And maybe that is a kind of, you know, dialectic that you like you needed universities to be undeniably radical in order to get to pull back, right?
¶57I could I could make that I could make that kind of case. I just don't think there are Like, I like that example because I can make the case. I think there are a lot of areas of politics and culture where it's just not not nearly as clear what the positive Like, you get the radicalization, you learn something from it, but but you want something positive at the end of it, right? >> So, where are your concerns? I mean, obviously you feel there are some instances in which perhaps that the tone that the >> Well, it's not just So, it's not No, but like it's not just So, it's Yeah, so tone matters, right?
¶58So, if in in the case of um, our engagement, military engagement in Iran, right? Um, I think that there you see both there's an issue of tone in action, where Trump, you know, explicitly threatened war crimes, which is a very un-Christian thing to do, and made, I think, frankly, somewhat blasphemous comments on Easter Sunday and in in Holy Week while he was shaking his fist at the Iranian regime. Okay, we didn't really commit the war crime, so you could say, "Okay, well, that was, you know, that was just rhetoric." But then the war itself has also been a disaster, right? Or not the worst possible disaster, a recoverable disaster. I I don't think it's the end of American power or anything like that.
¶59Um but it was a poorly planned, poorly thought-out war. So, often the And I feel like this recurs. The often it's like the best case you can make for Trump is he doesn't mean or doesn't follow through on the most toxic things that he says and does. But then the actual policy outcomes are still not great, either. Right?
¶60So, it's it's both sort of the moral problem and the practical problem. I think there is a connection between the two. >> How do you respond to that, Eric? >> What's your view on Iran right now? >> Mhm.
¶61I'm the last person anybody should ask about Iran. I don't know. I don't know. But I do I will say that, unlike many people on the left and many people on the right, I do I trust Donald Trump ultimately. I do trust him.
¶62And I think I can tell by the way you're looking at me that you don't. But the point is that I I I I think, um yeah, I generally speaking, my my uh policy would be to give him grace and to assume that he knows things that we don't know and that he's doing something that he does in fact know what he's doing. It might not be perfect. It might not end up where I I >> What Why Why? I mean, why why is why do you give him grace?
¶63>> Um because I do think he cares about the same things that we care about. I don't I don't think he he doesn't care he doesn't care about >> could care about the same things that we care about and still be a disastrous president, right? George W. Bush cared about a lot of things that you and I both care about and the first that not the first the second Iraq war still did not go particularly well. Like there there's a kind of mode of trust the plan, trust the president that you get from a lot of Trump supporters that >> Right.
¶64>> In a way I I think it comes out of the fact that he has rebounded so many times. >> Yeah. >> He's dead but he's never dead. Any resurrection to the Trump tonight. But I guess what I what I trust Trump I trust Trump to not like to not be so bound by any particular commitment that he can't wiggle out of a bad situation.
¶65And that is that is a real skill. Like I do I do trust him not to say oh we're this far in in Iran, I might as well send in 200,000 ground troops. I trust him to say oh actually we went in hasn't worked out the way I hoped. You know, J.D. Vance my vice president he was against it all along.
¶66Let's have him go try and make peace. And that and that that is a that's a real skill but it's different it's quite different from saying Trump had a visionary plan all along. >> Well, I wouldn't I wouldn't say that he had a visionary plan all along. I don't know what his plan was but I do think he's the guy that gave uh conservatives the very idea of forever wars that said these are bad. I mean when he said that on on the debate stage against with Jeb Bush in 2016 the whole nation gasped that wow, we have a Republican saying that was wrong and that was bold and astonishing because I think so many thing and I think it's one of Trump's great virtues is that he says the thing.
¶67This is like the It's the virtue of many comedians, actually, and it's part of why he's so funny. He'll say the thing that everyone is just about thinking but hasn't yet articulated or made conscious. It's there, and then suddenly he throws it out and you go, you know, and sometimes you laugh or sometimes you just go, "Oh my goodness." So, because he was so far ahead on that issue, I cannot be convinced that suddenly he's forgotten about it and that he's going to drag us into some quagmire. In other words, I I believe that that is at the forefront of his >> You've got faith that he's he's got a plan. There's there's other other factors that are going into >> I Yeah, but I I just think generally speaking, he's not dumb enough to get us into a long quagmire of a forever war that he's well aware that that would be hugely harmful uh to him, not just in the midterms, but in terms of his reputation.
¶68And because he cares so much about his reputation, whether that's because he's a narcissist or for other reasons, that's a good thing and that he he does he he doesn't >> I I I No, no, and I I agree with that. I I in the sense that I think that Trump has he has a lot of instincts for how far he can go. He's not bound to a super ideological worldview where he's always doubling down because he's an ideological fanatic. And I think that that does help him claw back when things go too far. >> Uh-huh.
¶69>> But the initial policies themselves, it doesn't mean the initial policies themselves are great, right? So, same thing with tariffs, right? Trump does all these tariffs, and all these economists run around tearing their hair saying the world is ending, and in fact the world doesn't end, and American economy can handle the tariffs okay, and so on. But part of why the world doesn't end is that Trump says, "Okay, we're going to pull back. >> [laughter] >> You know, we're going to pull back a bit on this.
¶70And it's also not clear that like the tariff policy is some broad success at reindustrializing America or anything like that. So, it's Trump's instincts and his cunning save him a lot of the time from debacles that a more idealistic politician might wander into. And that that is a strength, but it's not it's >> There's a kind of survival pragmatism. Yeah. >> In a sense.
¶71>> But that's less than still less than like real achievement, I guess. >> Do you think that's a quality that you you admire? >> Well, no. I I I think it's I think Ross, I wouldn't agree with with you on this. In other words, I I think that that is to presuppose that he didn't know going in where it might go.
¶72In other words, to to to to to say for sure that oh, he gets into trouble and then he scrambles out. I think that's part of the calculation that he understands when he's doing the tariffs. He knows everybody's going to lose their minds. And he already knows there's no reason for that. That first of all, they're wrong.
¶73It's not going to be disastrous as it is. And he's almost inevitably proved right every time. People scream and scream and scream. >> of the policy. >> Well, and then but I'm saying we don't know whether he was going to walk part of the policy or whatever because that and that to me is what's interesting about him is that because he's the deal maker, because he's doing this he's not going to tell us.
¶74And that is difficult, right? When you have a politician who doesn't tell you >> a kind of four-dimensional chess thing going on with >> Well, at least to some extent, yes. Yes. Now, I don't think that you know, it means that he's uh In other words, I I don't I don't think it means that he's got everything figured out as some people would would think and whatever. But I think there's enough of that that I'm willing to give him grace or to to trust him because I don't I don't he just stumbles into stuff and then cleverly gets out.
¶75>> don't think that deals themselves are adequately impressive to give him that kind of grace. Right? I don't I don't look at whether it's his legislative record or Like I I think his first term foreign policy was actually quite successful overall. Um and you could say that like, you know, maybe the Abraham Accords, right, are an example of what you're talking about where his sort of he there there were, you know, there were sort of a pragmatic approach to the Middle East that other presidents hadn't tried that did end up bearing fruit. In general though, if you're looking for serious accomplishments or cases where you say, "Oh, man, that's a you know, that's a grand bargain that only Donald Trump could have struck." Like >> [snorts] >> I I'm not sure what the list is.
¶76>> Well, I just I don't think we're there yet. In other words, I think he he's aware that we have we have some time. I mean, what what's going on with China? I don't know, but I do know that he's aware of them as as a threat and so he's playing this longer game with them. You know, what happened in Venezuela?
¶77If we could just bottle that look. >> Well, Venezuela I mean, so there's a lock >> They're not convinced. >> Sorry. I'm not So, Venezuela was but Venezuela wasn't some like four-dimensional chess plan. It was a very straightforward let's, you know, let's see if the military I mean, can can pull this off and then we'll get someone who wants to make a deal with us.
¶78I just don't think that that model apply. I think he tried to apply it to Iran. Sort of was like, "Okay, let's try the same thing in Iran. Knock off the top level leadership." But Iran was different from Venezuela and you couldn't pull it off. And I don't think there's any With China, again, I just don't I don't see any consistent grand strategy vis-a-vis China at all.
¶79I think he sort of pinballs back and forth between are we trying to make trade deals with them? Are we protecting Taiwan? Are we giving up Taiwan? It just is it's all very ad hoc. >> I think he deliberately confuses people.
¶80I think he does I think he's doing that with China. >> But where does your I guess this is what I want to know. Where does your you express this confidence >> Yeah. >> in him, right? Is it just rooted in the fact that he keeps winning when journalists don't expect him to?
¶81Like why why do you invest this confidence in his skills? >> Well, I guess that's part of it. >> Is it just the win the unexpected winning? >> Well, but I mean it's it's it's at a it's at a preposterous level. It's ridiculous.
¶82In other words, I would think that the that that the the journalists at class would have learned by now to shut up for 10 minutes and to see where it goes before they instinctively attack as though he's the devil and we know he's the devil and we have to attack him. I mean it it's become tiresome over it's been 10 years now of you know >> I mean so so that's you think he's working it's it's kind of it's working out and he is kind of delivering essentially. >> Well, I I think what we have to think about is the alternatives. The idea that the Democrats put forth Kamala Harris as the alternative it is is simply extraordinary to me. I mean, I I can't even imagine you know, it's one thing to criticize Trump.
¶83It's another thing to think what we had under Biden. Uh what we might have had under Kamala Harris. I see this as an existential crisis. This is not this is not Dukakis or Dick Gephardt or Gary Hart or Tip O'Neill. These are people that are just unlike anything we've ever seen and we act like we have some civil alternative.
¶84We don't. We We had Kamala Harris running for president. >> have seen obviously under Kamala Harris would be a lot of the things Trump has done, you know, slashing the US aid budget and obviously the ICE raids and his approach to immigration. Now, all of that arguably were he was him responding to what he believed he'd been called to do, his mandate, you know, by the American people. But, obviously he's come under a lot of fire from some parts of the Christian church, Catholic bishops who have criticized the way that he's slashed US aid and so on.
¶85>> Where >> I think the Catholic bishops are unbelievably corrupt and do not represent the Catholic Church. That is my parochial Protestant view. Shared by many Catholic friends. >> Do you You obviously don't take the view that that his international policy on this front has is in any sense un-Christian? I I do >> Certainly not.
¶86No. >> Is the America first view sort of one that you're happy to say that is that's perfectly consistent >> Even the term America first, if it were purely America first, it would be un-Christian. Um if America thrives, the idea if America is America, um if America thrives, I think that thriving would redound to the rest of the world, certainly to Western Europe. I've always believed that. It's not about just America.
¶87So, I think when people use the term America first, it kind of creates this false idea. >> Well, Trump uses the term. >> No, no, I know that. >> But he But he also enacts it, right? In the sense >> does Marjorie Taylor Greene, he Steve Bannon.
¶88>> But so when when when Trump was reelected, I knew a lot of European conservatives who were very excited and who felt like they hadn't liked Trump round one, but they'd had your reaction to Kamala Harris. They had their own versions of Kamala Harris in the UK or on the continent, right? And they said, "Okay, you know, Trump shows that you can you can you know, you can defeat the progressives, right? You can actually win and come in and actually change the government and so on, right? But then immediately Trump started shiving the leaders of nationalist and conservative parties in Western Europe and he essentially threw the election in Canada to the liberals by talking about how we were going to make Canada the 51st state.
¶89And by the way, I'm I'm in favor of a grand North American Union, but probably not on the terms that that Trump was suggesting. And there have been similar things with parties in Western Europe to the point where Western European nationalists and populists have had to distance themselves from Trump because they know that it's toxic for them. So I think he's he's again, he's sort of obviously America first in the sense that he doesn't give a flying F. I we said we weren't going to go blue he doesn't he doesn't care about the fate of conservatism or you know, we're here at the ARC conference. Do you think Trump cares about the people trying to restore Christian civilization in Great Britain if they don't cater to him and feed his ego?
¶90Of course he doesn't. >> You could have used the term flying fig and I wouldn't I would have not been offended. And I'm probably biased because Trump and I shouldn't say this publicly, but he's promised me the governorship of Greenland if I play ball. >> Okay. >> Those were his words.
¶91No, I >> And that's what he would say. He would say if you play ball. He if you came to Trump and you're like Mr. Trump, I have a plan to you know, to um restore Christianity in Great Britain to its greatest flourishing. And all I need from you is $500 of American government money.
¶92And Trump would say, you know, well, that's absolutely fantastic and you need to do that. And you also need to put out a long fawning public statement about how there's never been a better Christian than Donald Trump, right? >> think I don't know. I don't think he would ever he would do that. >> he would.
¶93He does that all the time. >> I've never I've not seen him do that. I've not seen him do that. No, honestly, I don't know uh you know, a better public Christian than Donald Trump. Who's who's saying things like that?
¶94>> I'm so Sorry. >> saying things like that that he there's never been a better public >> with statements that flatter flatter Trump? >> flatter Trump. See, again, it all depends on what you see >> you watched his cabinet meetings? They're very entertaining.
¶95>> Yeah. >> But they're like no one has achieved so much American greatness in so short a time than you, oh holy and sacred ruler, our President Trump. >> I find I find that and I think most Americans find that entertaining. Like it's funny because >> I I find it entertaining. >> a character that is partially true, but it's partially a character.
¶96>> but he would fire them, right? I mean, it's a character except that he's he's in character all the time. >> I think I mean, I think this is true. I think he listens genuinely listens to all kinds of points of views and makes a decision. And that's a great That's why he's a billionaire, I guess, right?
¶97He really is good at that. But I also think that he prizes loyalty. And I I think that's an important thing. I mean, I think having just written this book on American Revolution uh when I think of what Washington went through and that there were people that were really loyal to him when things looked bad. And there were people who were gunning for his job.
¶98I mean, you know, Horatio Gates and Charles Lee and and I I think that there's something to be said for having the wisdom and discernment to say, "Warts and all, I I have to back this man. I'm going to back this man." >> Hello again. If you'd like to see more of these conversations from Uncommonground, please do consider becoming a monthly supporter. Monthly supporters get some perks, too. Silver supporters get early access to new episodes plus bonus content from Think Faith.
¶99Gold supporters get all of that plus the chance for a monthly catch-up with me and signed copies of both of my books, The Surprising Rebirth of Belief in God and Why I'm Still a Christian. Find the link to support from today's video and help me make more conversations that matter. >> Is Is the danger though that there there is a demonization that Trump then puts towards his political opponents that inevitably just feeds into the polarized kind of way in which our >> Like which opponents? What do you mean? >> Well, I >> Well, like Marjorie Taylor Greene you mentioned who was you know, a loyal incredibly loyal supporter of Trump and then broke with him over the Epstein files, right?
¶100And the next day from his point of view, there's no worse human being than Marjorie Taylor Greene. And again, >> That's like lying Ted lying Ted Cruz and then as you said before, you know, he says that kind of stuff but then he'll he'll he'll take it back. >> the ring. >> Well, I I think that's honestly honestly >> [laughter] >> That's very funny. That's funny.
¶101Um the the uh >> Is this a Godfather >> That is It is a Godfather reference. >> Can we reveal to your audience >> And may your first child be a masculine child. >> The the the joke here is that I revealed to both Ross and Eric before we started recording that I've never watched the Godfather movies. And and that is to my own shame. That should >> And you claim to be some kind of public Christian.
¶102I can't imagine what that's about. >> But at least I didn't watch it at the age of seven as you did. >> No, nine. Nine. I'm sorry.
¶103>> Um well, uh I got to figure out what we were talking Well, we were talking about whether Trump in kind of requiring in fact people to >> I think I think honestly Ross and I don't I know you're not doing this intentionally but I think you're being somewhat cynical. I don't think it's it's nakedly the case as you're as you're putting it. I I don't and I don't think it's about In other words, I I think Again, I think it's about loyalty but loyalty in the good sense of loyalty and this doesn't mean that it's only in the good sense of loyalty. Maybe it sometimes bleeds over but I I I I think that's the case. I mean Marjorie Taylor Greene, it's kind of like when we're talking about how the the liberals have been driven over into saying and embracing things that if they had any wisdom they wouldn't have but but he's driven them to that.
¶104I think that happens with folks like Marjorie Taylor Greene. I mean, I never was some great fan of hers but her pushback against Trump struck me as unseemly. Even if you have a principled position, she seems to have done a little bit crazy and and and I think that that's happened with other people. It's happened with people like Tucker Carlson who just decided he's no longer a Republican. Don't let the door hit you on the way out, Tucker.
¶105But I have to say that folks do that to themselves. Like I don't think that it's just the issue of they disagree with him. That they somehow make it personal and then they they they When you make it personal with Trump, he he gets personal and he goes into that mode. Definitely. I I mean coming back to the church as well because one one of the issues that I think is part of this is that the MAGA movement has if you like really become part of the politicized aspect of certain parts of the Christian church in in the US.
¶106Now, in the UK here Eric and Ross, we don't have nearly as much I think of an alignment as there has traditionally been between the right wing in politics and uh Protestant church or parts of the Protestant church in the in the US. Um that in in a sense has reached its nadir, I think, with in the age of Trump. Um >> It's pronounced nadir. Nadir. >> I I apologize.
¶107Not only do I get my Godfather references wrong, I get my >> No, no, no. You're I'm kidding. That's probably >> Yeah, I know what you mean, but the >> We're going to do airplane. >> [laughter] >> For a special bonus round. >> It's but it it has got to this kind of particular point where it feels like that the toxicity in politics has spilled over into the church as well.
¶108There's this kind of demonization of people who don't hold the same political perspectives. Um is that Was that always there, do you think, Ross, or is that something that the age of Trump has intensified in any way? Um >> This is where I've actually been a bit surprised by the the extent to which that It's it's not clear to me that that is actually the defining story of American Christianity in the Trump era. I think there is a portion of American Christianity that is all in with Trump in ways that have sort of taken that started with the idea that it was sort of a necessary compromise and then proceeded not just to like the King David version, but to a kind of celebration of Trump as a paragon of Christian virtues. And I don't think that makes any sense at all, and I think it alienates people from Christianity.
¶109But in the event in the actual world of last 5 or 10 years America, um what we've experienced has not been everyone turning away from Christian faith because of its association with Donald Trump. Instead, you had sort of secularization, the decline of organized religion sort of hit a bottom level about 5 years ago, and then you had a rebound. And you've had sort of It's it's not a It's I would describe it more as a culture considering a revival than a culture experiencing a revival, but there's much more interest in and debate about religion in all kinds of circles in the United States in 2026 than there was five or seven years ago. And so whatever Trump has done wrong and whatever is wrong with the conflation of religion and politics, I think Eric and I do like pretty strongly disagree on how far you should take the Christian case for Trump even if you're going to make it. I don't think that has like poisoned all of American religion to any substantial degree.
¶110I think in fact, the lesson of the Trump era is that there's just a lot of things that happen in religious culture that just aren't connected to politics. And we spend all our time talking about politics cuz that's the thing you can measure. It's like, "Oh, here's the election. The new guy's in, the old guy's out." and so on. But like what actually is driving people to leave church or go back to church are trends that overlap with politics but aren't defined by them, I guess.
¶111What do you think, Eric? And how do you feel about Christian leaders who do stand up and critique Trump? Do Do you say they have every right to do that or do you feel >> Trump? I mean, it depends how and on what issue they're criticizing him. I think that I mean, the idea that politics is supposed to be somehow separate from the church is preposterous.
¶112It's almost offensive to me. I mean, that's what people said when Christians were advocating for the abolition of the slave trade. It's nonsense. These are moral issues. And if the church doesn't want any trouble, first of all, it's not behaving as the church because the church should be looking for trouble.
¶113The church should be saying, "These things are wrong, and we're going to stand publicly uh even if we're excoriated or scorned in the culture because we believe in the sanctity of life, for example, and for unborn sanctity of unborn life. We believe slavery is an abomination. The church has always been political as far as that goes, and my book on Bonhoeffer is the story of a man trying to get the church to be political and facing a a cowardly church, a church that had no spine, willingness to stand up to evil. And what makes that particularly ugly is they they hid behind religious reasons for not opposing Adolf Hitler. And I think that that's that's that's always the case that that you're going to pay a price if you take moral stands, and then the people who don't like those moral stands are going to say, "Oh, you're just being political." Do you Do you think that >> Trump has in that sense been an ally of the church, especially on the pro-life issue, for instance?
¶114Do you feel he's been >> If if if Hillary Clinton, God forbid, had been elected, we would have had three Supreme Court justices in the mold of Sotomayor or, God forbid, Jackson, and the hope of ever overturning Roe v. Wade would have been kicked 100 years into the future. So, that's the kind of reason people voted for Donald Trump hoping that he would nominate originalist judges. And he even What's amazing to me is that uh George W. Bush never would have said it because it would have been too politically incorrect.
¶115Trump actually said that I'm going to nominate justices who are opposed to You know, he actually says the thing that you shouldn't say, you know? Um and I'm thrilled that he did that, but that's one issue. That's a very big issue. And it is a moral issue. And people have often tried to make it sound as though oh, that's transactional.
¶116Well, that's what politics is transactional. We, the people, we actually govern ourselves. We're not governed by elites, we're not governed by the president. We elect representatives to do our will, to do our bidding. And if enough of us believe that they should elect originalist judges, when they do that, that's not really transactional.
¶117That's them doing what they were elected to do. >> But I think the transactional issue is more that so you have Roe v. Wade repealed, overturned, excuse me. And from that point on, I think it's been very clear that Donald Trump doesn't want anything to do with the abortion issue. He, you know, for for some sound political reasons, a lot of backlash against overturning Roe.
¶118Um, but his the mode in his second term has been religious and social conservatives got what they wanted on this. >> Yeah. >> And we're talking about other issues now. >> Yeah. >> Right?
¶119And so I agree with you that you can't separate religion and politics. America separates church and state, but we've never separated religion and politics. For the reasons you described. >> We separate church and state to protect the church from the state, and that's been misunderstood for 70 years. >> to protect the church from, not just from oppression by the state, but also corruption, where the church becomes just sort of a tool of partisan partisan causes.
¶120And that I think is the danger. Just just on the abortion issue, right? It's Yes, of course, absolutely. Religious groups had every reason to say Donald Trump has the right position on abortion and we support him. But what then when Trump pivots and makes it clear that his he he saw this as a transaction, he delivered his end of the bargain, the deal's done.
¶121From his point of view, that's the point at which an independent Christian perspective has to be able to say, well, okay, but we're going to criticize him on that, and we're not just going to say, you know, well, be grateful that you got Roe v. Wade overturned, right? >> Well, he I think he felt that his job was to push it back to the states, and he understood that, and he did that. And then after that, yes, his job is done. It's our job as Christians to advocate within each of those states.
¶122>> Right. But federal abortion policy, I mean, not not to get into the weeds of this, but federal abortion policy now permits um permits the use, you know, the sale of abortion drugs across state lines, and for that reason, among many others, right? Uh actual abortion rates have not diminished or to the degree that pro-life has expected. It's a big policy issue. It's a national debate.
¶123Again, there are sound totally sound political reasons why Trump wouldn't want to touch this. But if you're talking about the idea that religious support for Trump is idealistic in the sense that like standing up to the Nazis was idealistic, then you have to maintain that that idealism and criticize him, right? When he's when he wants to just walk away from the issue. >> I'm talking about the the church standing up to the Nazis. I'm talking about the church taking political positions.
¶124>> Right. But if the church But But I'm saying if the church takes a political position in support of a politician >> Yeah. >> because of a moral issue, >> Right. >> and then that politician wants to move on and abandon the issue, then the church can't just be partisan and say, well, we're still on your side, you know, >> Well, it it depends. Listen, I think it's perfectly fair to to criticize the president's policy on IVF, on, you know, on abortifacient drugs.
¶125I mean, I I think that's perfectly fair, but I think it's all a matter of degrees. He did a huge thing in putting the ball in the court in in in the the court of the states. That that's a >> Okay, but how long All right, but so how long does he get How long does he get a pass for that? Like can we get mad at him in the next Republican administration? >> Well, I mean, again, get mad at him compared to what?
¶126Compared to what Kamala Harris's abortion policy would be? You know, to me, it's all an issue of degrees. It's It's like I don't uh >> But, this is what >> not to just >> But, this is what people worry about. >> What do you mean? >> I think in in terms of like how religion and politics fit together, right?
¶127It's like one moment, you're saying, "We are idealists taking this stance, you know, expecting scorn and opposition. >> Yeah. >> And and you know, but we're doing the right thing and we have to be engaged in politics in this way." >> Right. >> But, then the person you're supporting >> Yeah. >> seems to be abandoning that cause and you retreat to, "Oh, well, you know, the other the other guy is better." >> it's it's not the only cause, Ross.
¶128In other words, that that that it it's it's not like if he were the king >> the causes of Trump's What are the great causes of Trump's second term? That you are that I mean, you trust him on Iran. I don't think Iran's worked out very well. >> I don't I don't know what I think of the Iran situation. The the But, I think maybe it's this all-or-nothing idea that that just because Trump doesn't Yeah, he's not a crusader on the issue of uh you know, abortifacients or But, I I don't expect him to be.
¶129There's so many other things that are going on. I mean, what happened with the border under Biden is such a scandal. It It It really does take my breath away. Blows my mind. I cannot imagine that this was allowed and that Trump's pushback on that is characterized as some kind of racism or xenophobia.
¶130I mean, that's the level that we're at, that we can't even agree with what Obama was was saying a few years ago, that that we ought to have closed borders. It beca- I I just feel like the Democrats have become so cynical that I don't know what to what to say anymore. >> But let me just just on on the immigration point. So, this is this is an example, right? Where there is a macro level reality of the policy where I agree with you.
¶131I think that the Biden border policy was a total disaster and you know, akin to the Boris wave just to keep us keep us grounded in UK politics. I think that there is nothing inherently un-Christian about responding to that by tightening border restrictions and so on. At the same time, the impulse Trump has there there's again these two conjoined impulses. One is to be so sort of tough and hardcore and bloody-minded, right? That you say, "We're going to do the maximalist thing and you know, we're going to send people to a you know, a miserable Central American prison without trial and if the libs object, they're pussies." And Trump did that.
¶132And that was wicked. And it didn't affect 100,000 people and they stopped when the Supreme Court pushed back on them, but that was a wicked and un-Christian thing to do to send people without trial, some of whom were bad people and some of whom were maybe not, to a hellish prison. That's the micro. Then at the macro, Trump has you know, he has he has made border enforcement less popular than it was before because of things like what happened in Minneapolis. Where it's this kind of shambolic, we're taking over a city, we're incredibly tough and then things go wrong and there's backlash and they pull back and fire Kirstjen Nielsen and so on.
¶133There's just no effective plan and I guess this is just similar to what I to what I was saying about Iran, right? Like there's sort of there's a specific temptation towards actually evil acts. >> Mhm. >> And then there's a general sort of trying to do the right thing but ending up incapable and shambolic and again ending up with 37% approval ratings. That just seems like a bad combination.
¶134>> We going to have to stop straw this to a close just cuz of time. >> I've said enough. Eric Eric and feel free to respond and then we'll we'll we'll have some final thoughts. No I I I don't I mean there's so much that I I won't I won't respond to that. I think actually just just what do you think about the Central American prison thing?
¶135>> I I'm embarrassed to say I don't know enough about it really to comment. I think that to some extent Trump was trying to send a message to the bad guys and to say we're going to we're going to go scorched earth. You better deport yourselves. You know that that that's part of it and I think that that is a reaction to what people have seen of the last few years. I mean I think >> Do you agree with the the the way that some posters have put it?
¶136I think Robert Jeffress and others have said we're we're not electing American pastor here. We're electing someone who's going to kind of lay down the law and kind of be the tough guy. And to some extent does that justify things that Ross may find un-Christian? >> Well it it depends. I mean I I'm sure if Ross finds him un-Christian I find him un-Christian.
¶137I I just think we're it's the details you know and I don't I don't know. I think that I think the problem is we we can focus all day long on on Trump. But I I don't think the the mainstream media and the the times at the top of the list has been fair in characterizing the satanic wickedness of the Democratic Party under Biden. I I I'm it's taken my breath away how as much as people have been automatically willing to criticize Trump no matter what, they have been willing to give a pass to the Biden administration and the things In other words, the It's one thing to say, "Well, we're not enforcing our borders." I read it as a cynical attempt to let millions of people into our country for all kinds of bad reasons and smiling and pretending, "Oh, no, that's not the case." And claiming that the border security is fine. I mean, that's a level of lying and corruption that it just takes my breath away.
¶138If there's anything that's un-Christian, that's un-Christian. >> We're going to have to bring it to a close, gentlemen. Just just final thoughts. Um do we feel like we can get back to a place where we can have any kind of a unity, common purpose, some kind of bipartisan approach? It feels like we've jumped maybe we're we're a far away from that.
¶139I don't know whether that's just Trump. It may just be the kind of age we live in now and and the rise of that, but uh is is there any way in which your shared Christian faith can give you, even as you sit on different sides of the political spectrum here, a hope that there is a a future for for a a more unified kind of politics? Start with you, Russ. >> Uh yeah, I I think I'm not hopeless just paired completely despairing about it. I think that we have set up a system in the United States and somewhat different from English conditions, but some parallels, right?
¶140Where each party thinks of the other in the terms that Eric just described as like an embodiment of satanic wickedness. And so, when you win an election, people tell themselves a story that like, "Well, we only have 6 months to undo the satanic wickedness and if we don't, everything is lost forever." And in reality there are just a lot of Americans, a lot of voters in between the two poles who are who hated Biden's border policy and also don't like a lot of things that Trump has done. And those voters are seeking a kind of stabilization and a kind of normalcy. And I think Biden campaigned in 2020 on stabilization and normalcy and didn't deliver it at all. Delivered, I agree with Eric, a very radical ideological administration and was punished for it politically.
¶141And Trump campaigned in part, he campaigned on a lot of things, but in part on bringing back the good times before, you know, but of of his own first term, but then I think he squandered it. But I think the squander is not necessary. I think it is possible to come in and say, you know, we we are going to try and govern from the beginning not for the core of our base in every way, but for the 10% of our country that is persuadable, that swings back and forth, that gave us a majority. And the model of success in American politics, whether it is Ronald Reagan or Abraham Lincoln or Franklin Roosevelt, has been you may be trying to divide the country, but you're trying to divide it in a way where you get 55%, right? And part of doing that is manifesting some Christian virtues in how you engage with your opposition with malice towards none and charity for all.
¶142>> He didn't just come up with that. That was Lincoln, you know. >> That was Did you know that that he was an American president during the >> President number 16. >> 16. >> Right.
¶143>> Um advice that 150 years later still stands. But what Do you I mean, you've just written a book on the first 250 years. Do you have hope for the next 250 in American politics? >> write a book on the first 250 years. I wrote a book on what happened 250 years ago.
¶144Um but I um I have great hope for the country. >> Mhm. >> I don't particularly care about unity because I think that unity it it to me, I mean, listen, just because both sides think the other guy is the devil, doesn't mean that one side is not the devil. And I think we have to have the wisdom to say, "We're responsible for trying to figure this out." It's not just about because they think Trump is Hitler, I have to give them a pass on behaving in a way as though he's Hitler. And I think that I think >> But wait, I know these are concluding statements.
¶145I'm sorry. But don't you think that there are people in like this is a democracy. >> Yeah. >> You talk about we the people. >> Yeah.
¶146>> We the people in the end is defined in part by swing voters, people who are not of one side or the other, right? And those people there are a lot of people who thought you know, who who didn't think Biden was Satan, just thought he was a failure, right? There's people who don't like Trump not because they think he's Hitler, >> Yeah. >> they think he's a failure. >> Politics does have to speak to those people.
¶147>> Absolutely. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> I that's all I wanted to ask. >> Well, no, no.
¶148That's That's right, but I think I mean, probably where Ross and I differ is that I really do think we're in an existential crisis. I don't think it's possible, as many of my conservative and conservative Christian friends think, uh to kind of make peace with the other side. I I I think that we're in this unfortunate position where if you stand up for what's right and true, you're demonized and attacked. Trump The way Trump was demonized and attacked amazed me, actually, because I think he um or it's not just that. I think what really flipped me originally back in 2016 was the way his supporters were demonized and attacked as though they must be racist scum.
¶149And because those supporters included my late father, I thought the the the mainstream media, the elites have never been more out of touch with with with America with Americans. And it was something that really astonished me. And that to me was the divide. >> And you wanted the shockwave that Trump brought in a sense to >> Well, I don't think he I don't think he brought it deliberately. I think that there are times in history when if you speak the truth, um you're going to be attacked viciously.
¶150And I think let's not pretend Lincoln wasn't attacked. Uh >> In very very literal ways. >> Time Time will tell. Time will tell, but I I think that Trump's I think one of Trump's virtues, and I do think it is a Christian virtue, is that he speaks truth. He says things that everybody says, "Well, you can't say that.
¶151Don't you know, Mr. President, you can't say that. George W. Bush would never say that. Mitt Romney wouldn't say that.
¶152Don't say that." And he says it. Reagan had that virtue. Reagan said, "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall." Everyone in Foggy Bottom said, "You can't you Don't you understand? You can't say that.
¶153That's incendiary. You're a madman cowboy. Don't say that." Um we begin bombing in 5 minutes, he joked. Those things to me, those are virtues. Um and I I also think that doing what you say you're going to do rather than playing the political game is a virtue.
¶154So, I think that there are some virtues that have not been uh praised in Trump, but I see them as virtues. And I also see them as particularly rare in politics, which is one of the reasons that I have valued him. >> Well, thank you both for being so helpful, uh clear, gracious. >> You cleared everything up. It's all settled.
¶155>> Um >> It's sorted. >> Uh really enjoyed hosting this this dynamic conversation between you both. Uh Ross Douthat, thank you for joining me on the show today. >> Thanks for inviting us. >> Thanks for having us.
¶156>> [music] [music]