¶1Something I like to do with these conversations is try to get each guest to try to articulate the other person's perspective. Some people call it steelmanning the other. And it's just a fun way of actually making sure we understand each other, we can hear each other. So, I'll start with you, Ross. Could you try to articulate why Eric believes Trump is the president that Christians need right now.
¶2>> So, to be Trumpian, right? There are two testaments. >> Mhm. >> They're about even. >> Mhm.
¶3>> But the Old Testament is the one that contains lots of examples of political leaders. And as you read the Old Testament, you will find in those political leaders a lot of very, very imperfect human beings, right? And sometimes they're imperfect to a degree that God walks away from them and washes his hands of them. But in some cases, God sticks with the imperfect leader from Moses down to King David and beyond. And it is often the case that someone who commits adultery or, you know, makes makes egregious foreign policy blunders to in, you know, whatever sort of all the all what whatever that implies in the Old Testament context.
¶4Um or otherwise fails to be a truly virtuous person, nonetheless can be chosen as God's instrument in a particular time and place to do a particular work for the sake of God's people. And I think Eric would say that we are in a Yeah. See if he says it himself, right? But that we are in a moment where there are so many different enemies arrayed against Christianity, against traditional religion. Most of them present and dominant in the progressive coalition.
¶5That And you have sort of a lot of men who may be or men and women who may may be more virtuous Christians than Trump, but don't have his political capacities and his political skills. And so, Trump, for all his flaws and all his lack of virtue, has been chosen by God to play a distinctive role in preventing us from sliding into some kind of soft totalitarian woke despotism. Or at the very least to prevent the United States from ending up in the mess that a lot of Western European countries have ended up in. How's that? How does that sound, Eric?
¶6>> I've never heard uh the brilliant Ross quite so brilliant as now. >> That but it was truly >> It's really amazing. >> Voices from on high speaking in my mind. >> No, I honestly I think that's a extremely well put. The only difference I would say is that I don't think it's about him being a president for Christians.
¶7I mean, I think a true Christian doesn't care about a president for Christians. A true president true Christian would care about a president for all the people. In other words, that it would be our agreement, I think, as Christians that it's not simply about giving us what we want, but being a good president, which goes beyond giving us what we want. But generally speaking, I I think that's about right. Yeah.
¶8I mean, I I think that's well well put. Articulation of what I think. Yeah. >> Um okay, Eric. Can you do the same?
¶9Can you channel Ross and >> I'm sure I can't. >> Well, give it a go and see >> Well, I I think Ross Ross did it a moment ago and and I think um the you know, the the Trump's lamentable lack of civility sometimes is generally unhelpful, seems generally unhelpful. And it seems to harm his own ability to get things done. Um and it does it has helped create uh a more vulgar culture, except that I think you know >> Wait, no, you have to stay with me. >> we're trying to Well, then over that's kind of what I'm saying is that I I I think But I But I I find myself frankly agreeing with that.
¶10Um so I I think it's just an issue of degrees because I I I do agree with that. And then the question is what are the alternatives? In other words, is Trump an example of the culture or or is he helping the culture to become more vulgar? And that's >> Can Can Can Can you anticipate Yeah, where where where Ross lands on this, then? >> Well, I think Ross uh s- said it a mo- a moment ago that uh And And again, strangely, I I guess I would I would agree that that uh he has in fact oftentimes said things that that have have been unhelpful.
¶11And that that is a you know, an apt criticism. Uh it's it's sad. >> But I suspect your position, Ross, is a little stronger than that. It's not just that Trump is unhelpful. I mean, would you go further than than how Eric has characterized it?
¶12>> Yeah, yes. I I think that you have to go you would go one degree further, at least, on sort of just how to analyze morally the way Trump engages in public. I think it's insufficient to say that it's unhelpful. And here I think Eric already made a version of the case himself by talking about his own reaction to the John McCain comments. That That kind of over-the-top personal attack on your enemies is just the way Trump operates.
¶13Now, >> Yeah. Yeah. >> it's also true that Trump is a forgiving man, right? He can attack you as the worst traitor to America in all of history one day, and then you can be back in his good graces the next. And you could argue that that's a manifestation of Christian charity.
¶14I think it's a manifestation of a man who likes submission and appreciates submission and will forgive anything as long as submission is ultimately delivered. But so that's But that that is one element. Yes, I would go further than Eric and say it's not enough to say that the Trumpian style is unhelpful and is actually often straightforwardly wicked and toxic and un-Christian. Secondly, there's just the question of what What are you actually getting from the presidency? And look, Trump year is not over.
¶15You know, that's at least 2 years and a few months to go. Who knows? You know, who who knows? Um maybe AI will enable sort of Trump to live forever as as an engaged figure in in our politics. But repeatedly under Trumpian conditions, you have had a failure to build the thing.
¶16Build the successful majority coalition, the legislative agenda, like the thing that you want from a president who is doing more than just owning the libs and shaming the libs. And you also have had repeatedly patterns where there Trump will win and there'll be sort of a shock and a moment of reassessment among his enemies, right? This is This is the helpful and healthy part in Trump Trump winning makes people who don't like Trump reassess what's going on in the world. And And in an ideal world, sort of correct for things that they were doing wrong. But then as Trump governs or as Trump engages people who don't like Trump stop reassessing and start becoming radicalized.
¶17So like Trump was elected in part because of progressivism in the US veering far to the left and wokeness emerging. But Trump's own presidency then turbocharges it, right? You get the peak the peak of woke power in America happens while Trump is in the White House, right? Starting in the summer of of 2020. I'm not sure if that's going to happen again, but at the very least you have to say, well, that didn't seem to work out all that well for the values of Trump supporters.
¶18And here we are in the second term and Trump's approval ratings are again, you know, 38 39%. Um Yeah, that's I've I've said enough there. Yeah. >> And anything you'd like to respond to there? >> I guess I just wonder whether uh what what the options are.
¶19In other words, I think that Trump My observation has been that Trump drives his critics crazy because he doesn't do what Republican presidents traditionally have done, which is make an effort to I mean, George Bush did it to to somehow bring the temperature down. Um >> He doesn't bring the temperature down. >> No, that's what I'm saying. But but but but but my but I think it's because he doesn't believe that that actually works. In other words, I think what it really looks like to him and to me to some extent is appeasement.
¶20In other words, the the mainstream media looks at it as oh, how wonderful. He's being civil, but I think your average American, your working-class American says, well, then he's not fighting for us. He's backed down. He's let them get away with this and this and this and this, and the country's going to hell. We want somebody who's actually going to fight even if it means enraging the other side.
¶21What options do you have? >> Does that mean that does that justify in a sense some of the quite controversial statements he puts out on his Truth Social and and that kind of thing? >> Um it certainly doesn't justify all of them. I think it justifies some of them. In other words, I think that he has made a calculation that that is a path forward and it remains to be seen whether it is, but I think that for example, I mean what you were referencing with us a moment ago uh the summer of 2020 you know, you what we have seen is the left becoming far more radicalized and so I think there is a real question whether that's a good thing or a bad thing.
¶22In other words, because if they In other words, there's some idea that oh maybe we can kind of pull them back, but I I think uh I'm not really sanguine about that. In other words, I I I think that they have no intention ever of pulling back and that what Trump has done whether uh advertently or inadvertently is forced them to reveal themselves and that that can be helpful. It's clarifying to see if you're actually a Marxist, oh, okay, so that's that really is your position. There's something helpful because it gives you a contrast. >> And you believe comes down that batch you're turning up the heat rather than dialing it down in that sense.
¶23>> To some extent and again, I think some of that is uh it is probably unintentional, but it's kind of a it's just part of who he is that he he represents something and the other side gets outraged and they find themselves becoming more radical and saying more radical things um because they can't help themselves in a way. >> Mhm.