¶1You have a popular agnostic, [music] atheist YouTube channel. And by the way, as we're recording this, you haven't announced this publicly. Last time you were on my show, you were debating Father Gregory Pine on divine simplicity. You come on as a atheist agnostic, and then a couple of months ago, I get a call from our [music] mutual friend Cameron Bertuzzi. >> What happened?
¶2What happened? >> [snorts] >> Who are you and what happened? >> Why is [music] gay sex impermissible? Why would God send people to hell? Why is there so much evil in the world?
¶3Why is God so hidden? Why is there so much religious diversity and religious [music] confusion? The problem of evil is just so powerful to me. I'm very cautious. Like it takes a lot to convince me.
¶4>> Yeah. >> At this point, I'm like I don't know. I'm a little bit scared. >> Yeah. >> It's just coincidence [music] upon coincidence upon coincidence upon coincidence.
¶5Oh, no. Catholicism might be true. That's not good. >> [music] >> Last time you were on my show, you were debating Father Gregory Pine on divine simplicity. And I'm pretty sure you won, which pissed me off a little bit.
¶6>> Did I win? >> It didn't piss me off, either. I was just joking. >> If I'm defending falsehood, I think I I think I lost. >> No, it was pretty wild.
¶7No, I would I don't know. It wasn't like a knock 'em down, drag 'em out kind of thing, but I remember Father Pine calling me, and he's like cuz he saw a picture of you, and you know, you look kind of young. And he's like, "Should I be debating this guy? I mean, he's like I know I'm not one to talk cuz I look young, but this guy looks really young." I'm like, "Trust me, he's really smart. It's just So, anyway, you come on as a atheist agnostic and debate Father Pine, and you did really well.
¶8And then a couple of months ago, I get a call from our mutual friend Cameron Bertuzzi, and he's like, "Uh so, Josh man, just converted to Catholicism." >> [laughter] >> So, you and I have intentionally not talked about it. Even over lunch, we didn't talk about it. What happened? What happened? I was just in and >> Who are you and what happened?
¶9>> My goodness, I was just inundated with divine grace. That's what happened. I mean, ultimately, conversion is a work of the Holy Spirit, right? So, it's not me. It's God working.
¶10So, what happened? >> And you, I want to say too before we get started that you have a popular agnostic atheist YouTube channel called Majesty of Reason, which we'll link to below, which I imagine is going to take a different trajectory, so it's going to be wild to see. And you And by the way, as we're recording this for those at home, you haven't announced this publicly. >> Oh, no. Yeah, we're still uh we're still in private right now.
¶11>> So, I told my social media guy as we came in. He's like, "What?" >> [laughter] >> Cuz he was a fan. All right, I'll stop talking. Go. >> Yeah.
¶12So, right now, I'm a PhD student at Princeton University studying philosophy. And ultimately, it was philosophy and just reasoning about Catholic miracles that brought me to the faith. Now again, divine grace was at work throughout all this. And this is not my own merit. This is God.
¶13Um but yeah, do we Where do we want to start? Do we want to start with the upbringing, Catholic upbringing? >> Well, I guess I would have begin by asking you if like if I had have said to you 2 years ago, like I mean, you'll be Catholic one day and on my show talking about your conversion. >> Ridiculous. Really utterly ridiculous.
¶14What are you talking about? Like, I just had so many objections. I mean, hell, get like gay sex, morality. I mean, I was I had boatloads of objections. I was like, "Why is gay sex impermissible?
¶15Why would God send people to hell? Why is there so much evil in the world? Why is God so hidden? Why is there so much religious diversity and religious confusion?" Like, I would have just like And of course, I would as I normally tend to talk fast, I got to slow down. I would have just like inundated you with like hordes upon hordes of objections.
¶16You know, I have this 12-hour-long video where I'm like systematically debunking all the arguments for God's existence, and it's like my most popular video. So, I would I would not have believed you. I would have thought you'd gone insane, Matt. >> And if I had have said, "And you'll also be wearing an Our Lady of Guadalupe tie and Saint Padre Pio's socks," you would have went, "Okay, just stop making fun of me." [laughter] >> Yeah, I would have I you probably Well, as I discovered, you know, skeptics are inclined with respect to Catholic miracles to posit hallucinations all the time and whatnot. Like, these really striking coincidental hallucinations like happening all the time.
¶17So, I would have thought that maybe you were just hallucinating or something. >> I do want to get into your story, but I also want to ask, how do you think your community is going to receive this when it becomes public? >> It'll be mixed. So, I've got Listen, I've been irenic for a quite some time. I've been very cordial and convivial to people who disagree with me because I think that's how we discover truth, right?
¶18>> [gasps] >> So, I think I've cultivated a community that first and foremost, at least I hope, loves truth. And if they love truth and they recognize that this is at least where I think truth is, I think they should be and potentially a lot of them will be open and receptive to what I'm going to say. Of course, a lot of them won't like it. I've got a lot of friends in the LGBT community. I have a lot of people who are atheist agnostics.
¶19I've co-authored papers with a bunch of atheists and whatnot. And they're all just going to be like, "What? You've lost your mind." Like, they're going to think I've gone insane. So, I do have a lot of friends who I mean, maybe we'll become estranged. Maybe I mean, I don't know what will happen, but >> Are you bracing for that?
¶20Are you nervous about the potential fallout? Not because you'll change your mind, but because it hurts to lose friends or to have people think ill of you. >> It it does hurt to lose friends, but, you know, like, if they hate me, they hated Christ first, right? So, I mean, before I converted, I did have a lot of these psychological barriers and whatnot pulling on me and tugging on me. Like, man, dude, I've been like a public critic of Catholicism and Christianity and like specifically Catholicism.
¶21People can look up my papers and books and whatnot. I am just like tearing down divine simplicity, divine timelessness, divine impassibility, divine immutability. I'm just like going after the very core of Catholicism's doctrine of God. I just I've been systematically cutting that down. I've been videos against like the Bible and various other things like that.
¶22So, you know, I was there. So, firstly, I need to show some kind of compassion and love to them, right? Because I was there. >> Yeah. >> Um and if one of my best friends converted to Catholicism at that point, I'd be like, "What?
¶23What are you doing? You've I would also have had very similar reactions. So, I've just got to show love. And again, I think uh at the time I had psychological barriers. Um but, I think through God's grace, through the intercession of our Blessed Mother and glorious Theotokos, um I've I've been able to I've been able to kind of get over that.
¶24>> wild to hear you talk like that, man. I'm like, "Is he punking me? Is he about to destroy my worldview and make me an atheist?" Cuz you know, you're a smart guy. People should know you're a PhD student at Princeton. Uh I'm glad to hear that you'll be having a conversation with Trent, because you'll be able to go a lot deeper with him than you will be with me.
¶25He's a smart fella. Um yeah, but I really am. It's It's It's weird to hear you speak like that, cuz I'm used to hearing your videos where you and Alex O'Connor are criticizing Catholicism and Christianity. And, you know, always I thought you always did a good job doing it in a balanced, loving kind of way. I never thought you were hostile or Alex, for that matter.
¶26>> Yeah, [sighs] well, listen, where where sin abounds, where darkness abounds, where imperfection abounds, grace abounds all the more, right? So, >> Yeah, I I don't I don't want to go back to your childhood. Maybe we'll get there eventually. What I want to get to is when did the first domino fall and how? And obviously, that's a you could go back to your childhood, but I mean like more recently, over the last couple of years, who