¶1Hi, welcome to the show. I'm Luke Martin and today my guest is Dr. Johannes Hartle. and today my guest is Dr. Johannes Hartle.
¶2Johannes is an author, a philosopher, a popular speaker, and an Instagram philosopher, a popular speaker, and an Instagram influencer. We talk about prayer, revival, community, and the arts Instagram influencer. We talk about prayer, revival, community, and the arts and a whole load more. I hope you enjoy it. Johannes, welcome to the show.
¶3Good to see you, Luke. Johannes, welcome to the show. Good to see you, Luke. Johannes, prayer can sound like something that's irrelevant Johannes, prayer can sound like something that's irrelevant to contemporary living. Could you make the case for why contemporary living.
¶4Could you make the case for why it's not irrelevant? Why it is relevant to our lives today? case for why it's not irrelevant? Why it is relevant to our lives today? Well, I once had a conversation with an atheist and it ended with that that sometimes he feel atheist and it ended with that that sometimes he feel this gratefulness just so happy to be alive.
¶5He sees the sunset or so happy to be alive. He sees the sunset or his child smiling and he's so grateful. So I asked him, "So whom or his child smiling and he's so grateful. So I asked him, "So whom are you grateful to? Whom are you actually thanking?" And that got him a little bit puzzled.
¶6thanking?" And that got him a little bit puzzled. I think the most foundational act of prayer is just acknowledging that puzzled. I think the most foundational act of prayer is just acknowledging that we didn't make oursel. There's so much in our life that is an undeserved we didn't make oursel. There's so much in our life that is an undeserved gift and saying thank you or giving something back to and saying thank you or giving something back to whoever gave all of that to us.
¶7I think this is the most foundational act. And this I think this is the most foundational act. And this is not even only religious people feel like that. I found that more people actually people feel like that. I found that more people actually pray than people would actually say that they firmly believe in God.
¶8Right. Okay. So, so they they're not sure about whether God exists, but Right. Okay. So, so they they're not sure about whether God exists, but they do find themselves voicing concerns or thanksgiving do find themselves voicing concerns or thanksgiving to some sort of uh supreme being.
¶9Yeah. or sort of uh supreme being. Yeah. or just wondering questioning something. Um so Yeah.
¶10or just wondering questioning something. Um so we engage in a kind of a self-t talk all the time as humans we engage in a kind of a self-t talk all the time as humans we do that and sometimes there is like like the wish or the intuition sometimes there is like like the wish or the intuition that there is a voice coming back. I'm I'm not talking about being crazy, right? I'm not hearing voices. being crazy, right?
¶11I'm not hearing voices. That's not what I'm saying. But like the question is to myself, to that I is there like the question is to myself, to that I is there a you is there a cosmic or you what I call it know is is there I is there a you is there a cosmic or you what I call it know is is there another consciousness coming towards me or not? And the another consciousness coming towards me or not? And the thing is as human beings we do have deep intuitions.
¶12You you can talk them we do have deep intuitions. You you can talk them away. You can say explain them away. This is just psychological things. Well, people have away.
¶13This is just psychological things. Well, people have made those experiences like they say the universe is speaking back to me or whatever, like they say the universe is speaking back to me or whatever, right? Can sound absolutely non religious. Well, it's a deep absolutely non religious. Well, it's a deep human experience that this self-t talk can deep human experience that this self-t talk can go flow into something like like like a dialogue.
¶14I don't stay with myself flow into something like like like a dialogue. I don't stay with myself and this is what I would call prayer or at least the first step into prayer. this is what I would call prayer or at least the first step into prayer. So it can be something quite natural. You know, people might think of So it can be something quite natural.
¶15You know, people might think of a a monk sitting down to pray in the the chapel of his monastery, sitting down to pray in the the chapel of his monastery, but but you're really presenting it as something that a whole bunch of people might even do presenting it as something that a whole bunch of people might even do without knowing it. Oh, people make spiritual experiences all Oh, people make spiritual experiences all the time, right? They they they out there in nature looking at the starlet sky or something there in nature looking at the starlet sky or something like that and they feel that there is a presence. feel that they are not alone there. And that there is a presence.
¶16feel that they are not alone there. And so for me, prayer has nothing to do or not nothing but not primarily with talking prayer has nothing to do or not nothing but not primarily with talking or doing something for God like reciting a prayer. It is more like something for God like reciting a prayer. It is more like turning your attention away from you towards a greater attention away from you towards a greater you, a greater presence. And I think this is something many greater you, a greater presence.
¶17And I think this is something many people do a lot even if they don't know that this is actually prayer. So how actually prayer. So how could one do that? Our heart So how could one do that? Our heart can direct its attention.
¶18So So right now I Our heart can direct its attention. So So right now I could either look you in the eyes and talk to you or I can just self-t talk with talk to you or I can just self-t talk with you being present. Right? What's the difference? The difference is the turning of my attention the difference?
¶19The difference is the turning of my attention towards you. So this is what my heart can do. So in prayer my this is what my heart can do. So in prayer my heart turns its attention towards the divine. Now you say prayer my heart turns its attention towards the divine.
¶20Now you say okay I I don't know I don't know anything about the divine. Yeah but we have don't know I don't know anything about the divine. Yeah but we have um we have an understanding of presence the divine. Yeah but we have um we have an understanding of presence even if we don't see another person. If you're in a completely dark room even if we don't see another person.
¶21If you're in a completely dark room and you can't see the other person but you know the person is there you can still draw your the person is there you can still draw your attention towards that person. So for me, God is always present. I do believe for me, God is always present. I do believe he's always present. And prayer is the turning away of the attention from this circling is the turning away of the attention from this circling around myself towards the presence of God whom I can see, from this circling around myself towards the presence of God whom I can see, but I can believe and I can sometimes feel.
¶22What would I can believe and I can sometimes feel. What would you say to somebody who says, I don't actually empathize What would you say to somebody who says, I don't actually empathize with that. I don't have this sense that there is somebody out there. Maybe don't have this sense that there is somebody out there. Maybe yes, when I'm out in the mountains, I think it's beautiful, but I don't have the sense that there's somebody beautiful, but I don't have the sense that there's somebody there.
¶23Well, I wouldn't say that I have proof for that. Well, I wouldn't say that I have proof for that. But I would ask back, do you have a openness for that. But I would ask back, do you have a openness towards that possibility? Sometimes people believe that faith is possibility?
¶24Sometimes people believe that faith is something like I believe in the plausibility of a certain truth claim, which in the plausibility of a certain truth claim, which is an expect is a part of faith. But there is a different part of faith which is faith. But there is a different part of faith which is more trusting. It's like I trust you as a person. I will never have complete proof I trust you as a person.
¶25I will never have complete proof that you are trustworthy. I will never know everything that's going on in your head. trustworthy. I will never know everything that's going on in your head. But trusting you as a person is even the first step into getting to But trusting you as a person is even the first step into getting to know you.
¶26If I don't trust you, I cannot even engage in a proper discussion I don't trust you, I cannot even engage in a proper discussion with you because I would always suspect that you don't tell me the truth. So yes, I would always suspect that you don't tell me the truth. So yes, faith in God also means to step out of the boat a little bit and also means to step out of the boat a little bit and being open for the possibility that somebody talks back to me. So answering your question, possibility that somebody talks back to me. So answering your question, your simple question in a very complicated way is like the first step could also simple question in a very complicated way is like the first step could also be something like that.
¶27Hey God, are you out there? And if you're out there, h show me out there? And if you're out there, h show me a sign, which is a absolutely valid prayer. I hear valid prayer. I hear that.
¶28I also know some people who have said that prayer I hear that. I also know some people who have said that prayer and if you like God hasn't spoken back you know people talk God hasn't spoken back you know people talk about the problem of divine hiddenness these non-resistant non-believers hiddenness these non-resistant non-believers you know if if the God exists and he's loving and he's personal why are these exists and he's loving and he's personal why are these people why are there people who are non-resistant non-believers they're open to God people who are non-resistant non-believers they're open to God so they're not resistant but they don't believe in God they're looking for a sign but they haven't yet believe in God they're looking for a sign but they haven't yet got the sign. How do you respond to that? Just three thoughts to that. First of How do you respond to that?
¶29Just three thoughts to that. First of all, I don't know because God is not a formula. So I don't have a proof. all, I don't know because God is not a formula. So I don't have a proof.
¶30I I can only say that from our side, opening the door, can only say that from our side, opening the door, opening up for the possibility is the first step. Without that, it's it's is the first step. Without that, it's it's very difficult. But then the second thing is the ways God answers something like thing is the ways God answers something like that might be very very different from what you expect it to like that might be very very different from what you expect it to be. So I met so many people who said oh I had I've had that so many people who said oh I had I've had that religious experience or William change James he writes about that puriformity change James he writes about that puriformity of relig religious experience.
¶31This is very very very different. So not experience. This is very very very different. So not not everybody has a very emotional experience with God. For for very emotional experience with God.
¶32For for some it's more just certain events fall into place. And what for some it's more just certain events fall into place. And what I found is if I talk to a person like I never experience God maybe they have a I talk to a person like I never experience God maybe they have a fixed image on what that has to look like but if you talk about image on what that has to look like but if you talk about their life it's easy to find traces of divine if you talk about their life it's easy to find traces of divine but sometimes those people they don't see them for themselves. We are not always those people they don't see them for themselves. We are not always good interpreters of our own biography.
¶33Sometimes it's easier to talk interpreters of our own biography. Sometimes it's easier to talk it through with somebody. And then the third thing is so the first with somebody. And then the third thing is so the first one is God is not a formula. I don't have a proof for that.
¶34The second is it can formula. I don't have a proof for that. The second is it can look very very differently. And the third one is it really might take time. differently.
¶35And the third one is it really might take time. And there are some bio biographies of some Christians or even saints who've been searching some bio biographies of some Christians or even saints who've been searching for years. And I don't know why God makes it so years. And I don't know why God makes it so difficult for some people and so so easy to others. I don't know.
¶36so difficult for some people and so so easy to others. I don't know. Yeah. Well, I I appreciate the honesty there. Yeah.
¶37Yeah. Well, I I appreciate the honesty there. Yeah. Um, now you have you have talked about moving away from a there. Yeah.
¶38Um, now you have you have talked about moving away from a transactional approach to prayer. Do you think people are are transactional approach to prayer. Do you think people are are too caught up in this particular understanding of prayer? Transactional brute. Oh, Transactional brute.
¶39Oh, definitely. Definitely. Especially in the west, especially in modernity. I think even most in the west, especially in modernity. I think even most people believe that this is the core of what prayer is.
¶40But a relationship is the core of what prayer is. But a relationship is never transactional or at least maybe it's transactional at relationship is never transactional or at least maybe it's transactional at the beginning. But if you take prayer seriously, I'm talking about you know for seriously, I'm talking about you know for forget forget your fundamentalist or very magical way of thinking for forget forget your fundamentalist or very magical way of thinking or concept of prayer. If you read the mystics, if you read the great spiritual of prayer. If you read the mystics, if you read the great spiritual tradition of the monks and of those who've prayed for many years, you find of the monks and of those who've prayed for many years, you find nothing resembling a transactional understanding like I give God something in order resembling a transactional understanding like I give God something in order for him to give me something back.
¶41It's way more mysterious and way more beautiful him to give me something back. It's way more mysterious and way more beautiful than that. Now, one Now, one of the uh big questions when it comes to prayer is, you know, if God is sovereign, comes to prayer is, you know, if God is sovereign, God's in control, to what extent should we pray sovereign, God's in control, to what extent should we pray for our circumstances to change. Now, you might you might come in immediately and say, well, that is the problem you might come in immediately and say, well, that is the problem there is you're you're praying for your circumstances to change. Perhaps that is transactional.
¶42But say circumstances to change. Perhaps that is transactional. But say we're praying we're praying for somebody else. Somebody else is suffering. To what extent Somebody else is suffering.
¶43To what extent should we pray for them? say to be healed of their suffering or to what extent should we pray for them? say to be healed of their suffering or to what extent should people trust in God's plan? Well, you know, it's very unnatural for us humans to not pray Well, you know, it's very unnatural for us humans to not pray in a way like that for two reasons. The first one is we actually care for other people, for two reasons.
¶44The first one is we actually care for other people, right? As a Christian, I'm not just interested in God and myself. I'm interested in As a Christian, I'm not just interested in God and myself. I'm interested in other people. it would be very unnatural to cut that off or cut that out of other people.
¶45it would be very unnatural to cut that off or cut that out of my prayer life. And the second thing, it would be unnatural because we believe that God is actually would be unnatural because we believe that God is actually a loving, caring father. So I if if if I'm a father, I'm that God is actually a loving, caring father. So I if if if I'm a father, I'm a father of four kids. I always want my kids to talk to me if they want, a father of four kids.
¶46I always want my kids to talk to me if they want, right, about their needs, about their emotions. Does it mean I will always give about their needs, about their emotions. Does it mean I will always give them what they want? No. But I want to be in contact with them.
¶47what they want? No. But I want to be in contact with them. So I think we have to keep both elements together. Prayer means keep both elements together.
¶48Prayer means to be completely transparent before God. Tell him what what we need means to be completely transparent before God. Tell him what what we need but also accepting that he's greater and his plans might be greater but also accepting that he's greater and his plans might be greater than that what we can see right now. And yes this what we can see right now. And yes this this this also has to do with unanswered prayer.
¶49Everybody And yes this this this also has to do with unanswered prayer. Everybody has unanswered prayer. I have. Yes. So unanswered prayer.
¶50I have. Yes. So for suffering, what well what do you tend to do when you're what well what do you tend to do when you're suffering? You're facing suffering? Do you tend to pray for a strength suffering?
¶51Do you tend to pray for a strength to endure that suffering or do you tend to to pray for a for strength to endure that suffering or do you tend to to pray for a for a way out of it? Look, honestly speaking about suffering, I'm 47. Look, honestly speaking about suffering, I'm 47. I live in Germany. I've never seen war.
¶52I never was tortured. I never was seen war. I never was tortured. I never was diagnosed cancer. I'm a little bit reluctant to speak about was diagnosed cancer.
¶53I'm a little bit reluctant to speak about suffering. I have suffered. But all I can say is I know people have suffered. But all I can say is I know people who have prayed through their suffering and that know people who have prayed through their suffering and that made it made them a really saint person, a sane and a saint person, an open-minded person, a sane and a saint person, an open-minded person, a loving person. Do I have the answer?
¶54Why open-minded person, a loving person. Do I have the answer? Why does a good God allow suffering? Or is prayer the answer to that? Not necessarily.
¶55God allow suffering? Or is prayer the answer to that? Not necessarily. But I can tell you not praying doesn't make it better at all. But can tell you not praying doesn't make it better at all.
¶56But in prayer, sharing my suffering with God, actually even taking better at all. But in prayer, sharing my suffering with God, actually even taking the suffering of other people or of the whole creation into my prayer life, the suffering of other people or of the whole creation into my prayer life, I think opens up something because what I saw is think opens up something because what I saw is that suffering tends to make people circling around yourself. I mean if you people circling around yourself. I mean if you are in severe pain and physical pain there is nothing else you can think of than that physical pain it's pain there is nothing else you can think of than that physical pain it's the normal the normal thing but I think part of the solution is even making my own pain of the solution is even making my own pain into the start of a dialogue with God this is even the first step to pain into the start of a dialogue with God this is even the first step to open up this circling around myself God this is even the first step to open up this circling around myself you have a house of prayer you have a house of prayer uh in in Germany tell tell us a bit about that community. Yeah.
¶57I mean, imagine a place where night and day wherever Yeah. I mean, imagine a place where night and day wherever whenever you would come, you find a group of people praying and praying would come, you find a group of people praying and praying not so much in a liturggical or very strict format, praying and praying not so much in a liturggical or very strict format, but in a more open, free flowing way, not in a church, in a more open, free flowing way, not in a church, but more in a modern building and more young people. So, this is the basic and more young people. So, this is the basic idea. So there's so many things that are open up 24/7 basic idea.
¶58So there's so many things that are open up 24/7 like the gas station or a fire station or the hospital because there station or a fire station or the hospital because there is a value behind it, right? There's a value behind me getting gas at 3:00 it, right? There's a value behind me getting gas at 3:00 a.m. because if I want to drive somewhere, I I need the gas, right? So Christians, as want to drive somewhere, I I need the gas, right?
¶59So Christians, as Christians, we believe that God is the greatest there is. There's the highest the greatest there is. There's the highest the highest being there is. So it's in my understanding it's completely the highest being there is. So it's in my understanding it's completely reasonable and right to be open for God to reasonable and right to be open for God to pray to God 24/7.
¶60He's worthy of our attention. And also we to pray to God 24/7. He's worthy of our attention. And also we want to build a place and we have built a place where people can pray and place and we have built a place where people can pray and people can come and they can join online even 3:00 a.m. in the morning when they can't they can join online even 3:00 a.m.
¶61in the morning when they can't sleep or in the afternoon when they're stressed out. So this is a physical place the afternoon when they're stressed out. So this is a physical place in the southern part of Germany. that we have uh but it's also thousands of people who come to uh but it's also thousands of people who come to this place, join our conferences or are part of our movement. come to this place, join our conferences or are part of our movement.
¶62Is it uh residential? Do you does anybody live there apart from yourselves? We have guest rooms. I don't live there now. We don't we sometimes we call ourselves now.
¶63We don't we sometimes we call ourselves like a a modern monastery but it's not a living community. It's just we have guest rooms it's not a living community. It's just we have guest rooms and we we we all live in the neighborhood. Okay. live in the neighborhood.
¶64Okay. And there's always somebody praying. Do you have like rotoras to make sure there's at least praying. Do you have like rotoras to make sure there's at least one or two people there? Yeah, exactly.
¶65Normally we try to have something like 10 people Yeah, exactly. Normally we try to have something like 10 people and have a music band playing there as well. So to have only one would be like the the music band playing there as well. So to have only one would be like the the absolute the bare minimum. And yes, we do have plans and we have around 50 absolute the bare minimum.
¶66And yes, we do have plans and we have around 50 full-timers whose main occupation is to keep that going. I'm full-timers whose main occupation is to keep that going. I'm one of those and then we have guests and volunteers joining and so forth. Wow. then we have guests and volunteers joining and so forth.
¶67Wow. So, hold on. You've got like five five to 10 people throughout the night You've got like five five to 10 people throughout the night every night of the year. Yes, exactly. Talking about we year.
¶68Yes, exactly. Talking about we just crossed the threshold of 100,000 hours of prayer I think last year. crossed the threshold of 100,000 hours of prayer I think last year. So, this is many nights, many hours in the night. So, you need actually many nights, many hours in the night.
¶69So, you need actually very dedicated people to do that. That's an enormous undertaking. I I people to do that. That's an enormous undertaking. I I we have the 247 prayer movement in the UK and the USA and have the 247 prayer movement in the UK and the USA and I I've come across sometimes a church will put on a 20 a 24-hour prayer sometimes a church will put on a 20 a 24-hour prayer uh day night or they maybe do a week of it, but you guys have it constantly.
¶70That's that's insane. I but you guys have it constantly. That's that's insane. I mean insane in a good way. Yeah, it's around 15 years now non-stop.
¶71way. Yeah, it's around 15 years now non-stop. It is is a lot. But if you think about it, think about a It is is a lot. But if you think about it, think about a cathedral.
¶72Christians used to be used to build very it, think about a cathedral. Christians used to be used to build very beautiful and very costly things for the glory of God. And what we try to do is and very costly things for the glory of God. And what we try to do is we actually build a cathedral in time. So I believe God is actually build a cathedral in time.
¶73So I believe God is it's a very unusual thought for us, but God is worthy of it believe God is it's a very unusual thought for us, but God is worthy of it all. Right? It's not so much oftenimes we think about service and and and and prayer. This is we think about service and and and and prayer. This is something God does for me.
¶74Yeah, there is some truth to that. But me. Yeah, there is some truth to that. But um God is worthy of our attention. He's worthy of it all.
¶75But um God is worthy of our attention. He's worthy of it all. Could I can I ask you an honest question? There must be times when you're like, do question? There must be times when you're like, do you know we could do 8:00 a.m.
¶76to 10 p.m. you're like, do you know we could do 8:00 a.m. to 10 p.m. because you'd be going when did you start? 200 We started start?
¶77200 We started 2007. It took us It took us four years to go 24/7. We started 2007. It took us It took us four years to go 24/7. We've been going 24/7 for 15 years now.
¶78It's just an enormous undertaking 24/7 for 15 years now. It's just an enormous undertaking and uh it speaks to the commitment of the people in your community. it speaks to the commitment of the people in your community. Is this uh so the only other one community like this I've heard Is this uh so the only other one community like this I've heard of is the one in I think it's in Kansas in America. Were they there 247 one in I think it's in Kansas in America.
¶79Were they there 247 all year round? Is that right? Yeah, that's that's right. Yeah, that was an inspiration for Yeah, that's that's right. Yeah, that was an inspiration for us too.
¶80Yeah. And what's really interesting about your setup, what's really interesting about your setup, Johannes, is you are Roman Catholic, but as I understand it, very ecumenical. Catholic, but as I understand it, very ecumenical. Yeah, exactly. So, we are not a church.
¶81We don't have a Sunday service, Yeah, exactly. So, we are not a church. We don't have a Sunday service, something like that. Um, all our staff members, guests, they belong to different churches members, guests, they belong to different churches and they go to their different churches. But the house of prayer is is yeah, is different churches.
¶82But the house of prayer is is yeah, is maintained by Christians from different streams. That's amazing. And that works. You've got That's amazing. And that works.
¶83You've got Roman Catholics, Evangelicals, Eastern Orthodox. Yeah, exactly. Whatever Yeah, exactly. Whatever else, it not only works, I I would say it's one of our greatest treasures. We it not only works, I I would say it's one of our greatest treasures.
¶84We love it. And it flows naturally and it's not even that complicated. it. And it flows naturally and it's not even that complicated. If you have something strong enough to unite you, uh you can live with the fringes.
¶85You something strong enough to unite you, uh you can live with the fringes. You can live with those things where you don't agree with each other. And maintaining prayer agree with each other. And maintaining prayer 24/7 keeps us busy. So we don't have so much time to fight about prayer 24/7 keeps us busy.
¶86So we don't have so much time to fight about other things. So is it do do you feel it has a bit of a mere Christianity So is it do do you feel it has a bit of a mere Christianity Lewis's vibe? So is this focusing on the essentials? All about this focusing on the essentials? All about mere Christianity.
¶87Yes. I love it. Yeah. And what it. Yeah.
¶88And what have you noticed over those uh I mean over 20 years since you got going, those uh I mean over 20 years since you got going, just under 20 years since you went uh 247. Have you noticed changes in got going, just under 20 years since you went uh 247. Have you noticed changes in yourself? Have you noticed changes in the people who who come to spend time yourself? Have you noticed changes in the people who who come to spend time there?
¶89I mean the main question people ask is have you noticed changes in I mean the main question people ask is have you noticed changes in your city? And people would expect like great stories. The thing is often And people would expect like great stories. The thing is often times people come to our city and they say something's different here like come to our city and they say something's different here like the atmosphere is different but of course it's very difficult to prove that maybe they say that it's very difficult to prove that maybe they say that because they know we've been praying here but I would say the greatest change I see been praying here but I would say the greatest change I see is in people yes people come here they stay for a for one day for the conference people come here they stay for a for one day for the conference or for one year and they would frequently say this was the and they would frequently say this was the most formative time in my life. So we just we have the most formative time in my life.
¶90So we just we have a 10-month program for young people to join us. It's called the Flame Academy and it was young people to join us. It's called the Flame Academy and it was just it ended 5 days ago. So we had a ev evaluation form Flame Academy and it was just it ended 5 days ago. So we had a ev evaluation form and we had them ranking we had them rank what was the most important part of and we had them ranking we had them rank what was the most important part of their 10 months and every time every time every time 9.5 their 10 months and every time every time every time 9.5 out of 10 of those students say by far the most the most important out of 10 of those students say by far the most the most important time was the time in the prayer room and many people would say this was even the most important time would say this was even the most important time of my life so far speaking about transformation about important time of my life so far speaking about transformation about identity about inner struggles about really who they are and how they see themselves.
¶91really who they are and how they see themselves. And as for me personally, definitely I would say prayer has changed definitely I would say prayer has changed me over the years. Yes, that's fascinating. People will talk about that's fascinating. People will talk about going to therapy.
¶92They'll talk about I don't know speaking to about going to therapy. They'll talk about I don't know speaking to spiritual advisor or a pastor or whatever else is as something that helps them. advisor or a pastor or whatever else is as something that helps them. But but these people who come to your community are saying that simply these people who come to your community are saying that simply being in this in this prayer hall being in prayer that that that this prayer hall being in prayer that that that is been absolutely lifechanging for them. That's remarkable.
¶93I mean think about therapy. I do love therapy but that would what heals in I mean think about therapy. I do love therapy but that would what heals in therapy is actually an encounter. A therapist is somebody whose presence therapy is actually an encounter. A therapist is somebody whose presence is right there who helps you to be yourself and to come come into right there who helps you to be yourself and to come come into into order with reality so to speak.
¶94And if this is true, what I believe that God reality so to speak. And if this is true, what I believe that God is really always here, he's always in the here and now. The only problem is always here, he's always in the here and now. The only problem is we most often run away. It's us who are not present.
¶95If God is run away. It's us who are not present. If God is love, as he if he's right there and you engage in a dialogue, you engage there and you engage in a dialogue, you engage in a conversation with him, this is also very therapeutic even more even more is also very therapeutic even more even more so than a lot of counseling I think. Do people have resistance to it? think.
¶96Do people have resistance to it? I remember seeing this show years ago called um into the silence remember seeing this show years ago called um into the silence or something. It was a documentary BBC documentary where they took a whole bunch of people many of them where they took a whole bunch of people many of them weren't religious and put them in a monastery for a week and you know they some of them in a monastery for a week and you know they some of them really struggled to begin with I think it was basically mostly a silent silent retreat to begin with I think it was basically mostly a silent silent retreat they struggled to they got agitated but by the end of the week uh almost struggled to they got agitated but by the end of the week uh almost all of them claimed that it had been a profound experience they found a new peace. claimed that it had been a profound experience they found a new peace. Do you find that when people come say for well for either for a you find that when people come say for well for either for a week or maybe they come for your whole 10-month program is there do they struggle come for your whole 10-month program is there do they struggle to begin with?
¶97Well, first of all, most people don't come, right? Most Well, first of all, most people don't come, right? Most people don't come to a silent retreat or come to a come, right? Most people don't come to a silent retreat or come to a house of prayer. But those who come, I would say the normal thing is to struggle for would say the normal thing is to struggle for one or two days.
¶98It's the same with me. If I've been very busy traveling, I come back into my normal same with me. If I've been very busy traveling, I come back into my normal prayer rhythm. I find myself struggling for the first two days. It's like first the for the first two days.
¶99It's like first the outward the outward noise needs to be calmed the outward the outward noise needs to be calmed down, but then the inward noise shows up and the inward noise is much more noise shows up and the inward noise is much more difficult to to to to yeah to get at peace with. But once the much more difficult to to to to yeah to get at peace with. But once the inward noise goes down after 2 or 3 days, this is I think where noise goes down after 2 or 3 days, this is I think where every everybody who's bold enough, everybody who dares to not run away bold enough, everybody who dares to not run away finds a very solid ground, something substantial run away finds a very solid ground, something substantial uh valuable for his life. I've seen that many times. Do you ever have anyone many times.
¶100Do you ever have anyone saying, "Well, this is we can give like a naturalistic explanation of what's this is we can give like a naturalistic explanation of what's going on here. People are slowing down." And it's a bit like on the um on pilgrimages. People are slowing down." And it's a bit like on the um on pilgrimages. People will say when you're on a pilgrimage, you slow down. The the movement will say when you're on a pilgrimage, you slow down.
¶101The the movement of your legs almost becomes meditative. There's this rhythm to your your daily legs almost becomes meditative. There's this rhythm to your your daily existence. And that in itself is therapeutic. That in itself helps people.
¶102Do you people. Do you ever pushing? And do you ever So do you ever have anyone pushing and saying that's all And do you ever So do you ever have anyone pushing and saying that's all that's going on there? Um, I'm I'm all for for that's going on there? Um, I'm I'm all for for the naturalistic explanation there.
¶103I would say it's built into our rhythms. explanation there. I would say it's built into our rhythms. It's built into our fabric. The thing is what you do in prayer is not our fabric.
¶104The thing is what you do in prayer is not only that. This I mean meditation is already great. I'm all for meditation. meditation is already great. I'm all for meditation.
¶105But Christian prayer comes with certain truth claims. It comes meditation. But Christian prayer comes with certain truth claims. It comes with the belief that God is actually really there. And you the belief that God is actually really there.
¶106And you know the interesting thing is if you really pray you're also confronted thing is if you really pray you're also confronted with negative things. It's not just the easy way of you know confronted with negative things. It's not just the easy way of you know quieting down and relaxing and chilling. It's actually confronting. quieting down and relaxing and chilling.
¶107It's actually confronting. It's confrontative. And I believe that true prayer is confrontative. And I believe that true prayer is something eventually you will want to you are going to want. prayer is something eventually you will want to you are going to want.
¶108You will want to run away if you do it the right way. you will encounter some things. want to run away if you do it the right way. you will encounter some things. Well, it's like Jesus went into the desert and he fasted for 40 days and this is where desert and he fasted for 40 days and this is where he was tempted by the evil one.
¶109I think this is an experience of prayer as one. I think this is an experience of prayer as well. And there you see it's definitely something very different from prayer as well. And there you see it's definitely something very different from only only a physiological or psychological thing. Yeah, I psychological thing.
¶110Yeah, I like that. I like that. Um, brilliant. We're going to take a quick break. We'll be back brilliant.
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¶114Find out more at premier unbelievable.com. course or gift it to a friend? Find out more at premier unbelievable.com. So Johannes, you've got this really interesting So Johannes, you've got this really interesting community and while you've been speaking, I'm thinking about tech. What's been speaking, I'm thinking about tech.
¶115What's your tech policy? I'm reading this book by Cal Newport at the moment called digital minimalism this book by Cal Newport at the moment called digital minimalism about the damage that um you know, social media and our phones etc. damage that um you know, social media and our phones etc. is is is doing to our brains. How do you help people to to switch off from tech our brains.
¶116How do you help people to to switch off from tech and really find a place of focus and stillness? Look, honestly, place of focus and stillness? Look, honestly, I think this is one of the most important questions of disciplehip nowadays. the most important questions of disciplehip nowadays. Um, I've just written a book last year called the power of a focused written a book last year called the power of a focused life.
¶117And it's actually a rather Christian book, but it's so many non-believers actually a rather Christian book, but it's so many non-believers who buy it who say this is actually what we need. So there's this superficial who say this is actually what we need. So there's this superficial part of top of of focus which is just be able to concentrate to of of focus which is just be able to concentrate to read a chapter of a book. This is superficial but the deeper thing is what am I This is superficial but the deeper thing is what am I f what I'm what is my life focused on. So is what am I f what I'm what is my life focused on.
¶118So um I think we need times of digital detox. We need to focused on. So um I think we need times of digital detox. We need to learn that. So yes with the students who come to our schools we So yes with the students who come to our schools we train them.
¶119I just come back from three days of silence. It was last week from three days of silence. It was last week and I didn't even take my phone with me. I'm really talking about literally leaving my phone with me. I'm really talking about literally leaving my phone at home, get in the car, drive for two hours to different place, spend two or three in the car, drive for two hours to different place, spend two or three days in prayer in silence.
¶120We need we need things like that. in prayer in silence. We need we need things like that. I really like that and affirm that. And but what if people are I really like that and affirm that.
¶121And but what if people are sort of, you know, they're in their working lives? Do you suggest any strategies that can know, they're in their working lives? Do you suggest any strategies that can be made that can be integrated into into work into study? Oh, work into study? Oh, sure.
¶122First of all, again, you need at least one time per Oh, sure. First of all, again, you need at least one time per year totally with without your phone. I made it a habit for the last I without your phone. I made it a habit for the last I think four years to not take my phone to vacation. Sounds very for the last I think four years to not take my phone to vacation.
¶123Sounds very very very strange with like how can you even without a GPS or without booking my very very strange with like how can you even without a GPS or without booking my restaurant. You will find ways. Yeah. So, I come home restaurant. You will find ways.
¶124Yeah. So, I come home from my vacation way, way way way more way way way more inspired, relaxed if I did it without my phone. If you don't do it on vacation, without my phone. If you don't do it on vacation, do it for a weekend, once a year. First thing.
¶125Second thing vacation, do it for a weekend, once a year. First thing. Second thing is once per day, you need a time of deep focus. year. First thing.
¶126Second thing is once per day, you need a time of deep focus. If you're a religious person, this would be your prayer time. This is my prayer time in be your prayer time. This is my prayer time in the morning. If you're not religious, maybe you're reading a book or you're journaling religious, maybe you're reading a book or you're journaling or you're planning your day or you're drinking a cup of coffee and thinking about your day or you're drinking a cup of coffee and thinking about your day.
¶127This time needs to be without your phone, your phone is not time needs to be without your phone, your phone is not in the same room with you. It's absolutely clear. Even if the if you. It's absolutely clear. Even if the if the phone is in the same room with you, your brain is still on this little on this alert mode.
¶128you, your brain is still on this little on this alert mode. Something could happen. Somebody could write me a message. So you need happen. Somebody could write me a message.
¶129So you need one day one time per day to actually uh quiet down. And then the third per day to actually uh quiet down. And then the third the third question is what is your routine at the end of the day. what is your routine at the end of the day. So I think we live more and more in a society that is not really day.
¶130So I think we live more and more in a society that is not really concentrated in work and not really relaxed in the time concentrated in work and not really relaxed in the time after work because we are on that in that white noise all the time that digital white noise. we are on that in that white noise all the time that digital white noise. So I believe we have to relearn the rhythms of life. believe we have to relearn the rhythms of life. You focus on your work and then you focus on your relaxation on the of life.
¶131You focus on your work and then you focus on your relaxation on the evening and your phone won't help you with either of those. evening and your phone won't help you with either of those. So I think we really have to tackle that heads on. Yeah, it's brilliant. really have to tackle that heads on.
¶132Yeah, it's brilliant. I'm all on board with this. I mean a very practical thing is do you recommend people with this. I mean a very practical thing is do you recommend people get do you remember those old Nokia phones or you know because or you know because one thing my wife says to me is like these ideas are great but what about an emergency? What like these ideas are great but what about an emergency?
¶133What if what if one of us needs to contact the other person? Um I I of us needs to contact the other person? Um I I honestly I have some of my friends who do that. I admire them. My life friends who do that.
¶134I admire them. My life would not work like that. But if you have any chance to buy yourself a Nokia phone, you have any chance to buy yourself a Nokia phone, yeah, do that. But there is some still some tricks that you can do. Another thing, some still some tricks that you can do.
¶135Another thing, right now, I do a lot on Instagram. I love Instagram and I hate Instagram. Right now, Instagram. I love Instagram and I hate Instagram. Right now, I have again deleted the Instagram app from my phone for more than one deleted the Instagram app from my phone for more than one week.
¶136So, I do that multiple times in a year because I'm an influencer multiple times in a year because I'm an influencer as well. So, I have to use that stuff. Sometimes we have to speak about the that stuff. Sometimes we have to speak about the necessity of silence, right? Sometimes we have to use technology in about the necessity of silence, right?
¶137Sometimes we have to use technology in order to advertise a life that is not dominated by technology. order to advertise a life that is not dominated by technology. But I myself, I I need a detox two or three times a year, I need a detox two or three times a year, deleting the Instagram app for two weeks from my phone, and I see that something changes weeks from my phone, and I see that something changes within me. I then can go back, but I still gonna something changes within me. I then can go back, but I still gonna need eventually another detox.
¶138It's stupid. But now I'm 47. I eventually another detox. It's stupid. But now I'm 47.
¶139I need that. Think about a 17-year-old. How much more they going to need it. a 17-year-old. How much more they going to need it.
¶140Absolutely. They don't know about life without this stuff. I remember when I Absolutely. They don't know about life without this stuff. I remember when I was young, you used to use the phone to organize, you know, the house party and was young, you used to use the phone to organize, you know, the house party and then once you got to the house party, the party was the party.
¶141Whereas now, I think a lot of young people, the party was the party. Whereas now, I think a lot of young people, they go to the house party and the party's still on their phone. Oh, sure. Because there's so much more going on their phone. Oh, sure.
¶142Because there's so much more going on on the little phone than say the 15 people in the room. We need to we need to help them understand in the room. We need to we need to help them understand the 15 people in the room are way more interesting than whatever's on room are way more interesting than whatever's on no offense, but Instagram, let me say that very clearly. If you have let me say that very clearly. If you have kids, you want to give them a phone as late as possible.
¶143you want to give them a phone as late as possible. Your relationship to your kids and all of their life will change dramatically and all of their life will change dramatically on the first day they get this. And if they get this, if they are dramatically on the first day they get this. And if they get this, if they are 14, it's way better than if they are seven uh 13. It's way better than if they seven uh 13.
¶144It's way better than if they 11, way better than nine, way better than eight. We should be against they 11, way better than nine, way better than eight. We should be against schools using iPads and iPhones. We should be four schools who schools using iPads and iPhones. We should be four schools who have a complete ban on smartphones.
¶145Uh because only then will teenagers complete ban on smartphones. Uh because only then will teenagers be willing to live without a smartphone if it is when all their friends al live without a smartphone if it is when all their friends al also have have none. And this sounds radical now. I prophesy in none. And this sounds radical now.
¶146I prophesy in two years time this will be common sense because this is it's all over the place. Everybody can common sense because this is it's all over the place. Everybody can see that this is going in a completely wrong direction and society as a whole will see that. direction and society as a whole will see that. Yes.
¶147So some are predicting that this will be like the new smoking. Yes. So some are predicting that this will be like the new smoking. People will look back on the times when they were on the so phones, social media screens, were on the so phones, social media screens, etc. Uh even to some extent AI use and they'll think goodness why screens, etc.
¶148Uh even to some extent AI use and they'll think goodness why did we let people do that to themselves. But let me say that as well we let people do that to themselves. But let me say that as well distraction the distracted mind did not start with the digital revolution.