¶1This is not my podcast with Dallas Jenkins, the creator of The Chosen, that comes out on Sunday or it's out right now for Substack subscribers. The link is in the description. Instead, this is just a tour of the set of The Chosen, which Dallas took me on after we finished recording the episode. So, if you're looking for a more theological conversation, how does the show harmonize the gospel accounts, for example, or an investigation into the more controversial elements of the series, you're not going to find that here. That will be on the podcast.
¶2This is just a bit of fun and I hope you enjoy it. >> So, you know where we were where we just were was inside. It's the Sanhedrin in Jerusalem. >> Yes. >> The exterior is the Capernaum synagogue.
¶3>> So, this is >> this is the Capernaum synagogue and this is where like Simon Peter and Gas had their whole conversation. They're fixing the the the well >> and there's been a handful of things that have happened out here. But this is Capernaum and then inside is yeah >> the Sanhedrin in Jerusalem. >> I love that these doors work. I think it's so cool like like sort of going in and out of that door to get into the set and there's something really special about making everything actually function cuz if you go to the real place if you go to like a a real historic place or like an old church or something they have these beautiful large doors and then you actually shuffle in through a little little sort of automatic door around the corner.
¶4>> Well and the other thing when you go to Israel for example some people will say well why don't you film in Israel? That's the place where it happened. It's been so overtaken by tourist locations and churches. There's really not very many authentic, >> you know, Jesus era places >> and also what you're going to like shut down the church of the holy supple to record. >> Well, exactly.
¶5So, you'd you you know, you you would have hoped that they'd preserve some things, but it's like churches are competing with each other to for for for space and for tourism attraction. So other than like the Garden of Gethsemane or some of these places that are quiet, it's almost all just overrun with tourism and commerce and all that. >> Yeah. >> So even some of these doors are actually hundreds and hundreds of years old. Like some of the the the construction teams would find like a local guy who's like passionate about Jesus and the chosen and and wants to contribute something.
¶6And so, uh, whenever possible, we would actually use certain materials from the Middle East or certain, uh, you know, centuries old doors and whatnot. That >> it's beautiful, man. >> Yeah. That, um, Jerusalem overrun with >> merchandise and whatnot and and consumers. Somebody should really go in there and >> flip some tables or something, man.
¶7>> So, I've seen this walkway before. Are we where are we still in Capernum here or >> So, this is Capernaum. you were going to ask me at one point about any regrets and one of the regrets one of the regrets that I have is this the the episode where we have the big Rama incident >> I'll say so as not to spo spoil it too much all takes place here it was also in that episode >> that one of my favorite Bible stories took place >> which is the healing of the blind man >> who Jesus spits in the dirt puts it on his eyes >> yes >> it's one of my favorite stories ever because of a the the concept of them saying, "Well, you you must have been blind because of your parents' sin." And Jesus is saying, "That's ridiculous." >> And then they're saying, "So, is he a prophet? Does he What did he say?" They're grilling him. And at one point, he just goes, >> I if he's a prophet, I don't know.
¶8That's for you to decide. All I know is once I was blind and now >> and now I see. >> And I just That's like one of my favorite >> Yeah. >> moments in scripture because it's a Yes, we can debate. Yes.
¶9There might be some backdrop or whatever. All I know is I was blind and now I see. >> Yeah, >> that story got a little lost in that episode because of >> I see >> the big thing that I also did later in the episode. >> Yeah. >> And so I I I often say I wish I would have found a better spot >> given it more space >> so that it could have had more space >> but it we also used it as a as a tool to escalate tension and then which ultimately led to the incident.
¶10But that's one of one of my uh handful of of >> tricky like when you're making when you're figuring out where to start and end an episode, are you always sort of looking for like the cliffhanger looking for the because that that must be quite tricky to do like I mean it's one thing to just try to get a coherent chronology of the gospel >> as a whole anyway given the different accounts and and how they have sort of differences but when you also got to be sensitive to keeping giving things their own episodes and stuff like do you ever take any like creative license? Do you ever we talked in in the podcast we did about how, you know, you've got to decide the cleansing of the temple. Does it go near the beginning or near the end, you know, because of the different gospel accounts. Are there any cases where something has very clearly taken place later on or in the wrong order and you've just swapped them just for TV? >> Yes.
¶11And and what we the the biggest uh examples of that are where we place certain holidays. scholars or historians will they'll notice in the show sometimes like wait a minute you had >> Passover and then like three weeks later was was Purum or this would have happened in this season of time of of the year but but not like why did you and and and we often say when it comes to chronology or when it comes to timing >> we'll sometimes use certain holidays >> for a story line where it wouldn't have been that holiday. That's where we probably take the most creative liberty is in the timing because of exactly what you're asking. Oh, this will be great to set up this big moment or this will be great to end the season. This will be great to start the season.
¶12So, for sure >> uh anyone who who knows history and seasons and chronology or distances like there are many times when our consultants are like >> it would have taken them four days to get there and in the show it takes them two hours. Right. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And we're like, if if there's a geography uh major watching it, they'll they'll roll their eyes, but >> they'll send an email.
¶13>> We need Yeah, we need to get there. We need to get the characters there quicker, so let's just go. So, we do we do that a lot. But, yeah, for the purposes of of television, cliffhers, uh character arcs, um will sometimes go, ooh, this would be a great spot in Simon Peter's journey for this event to take place, even though >> most likely it took place a year earlier or took place in a different location. In fact, even the the healing of the blind man with the dirt happened uh uh almost undoubtedly in Jerusalem.
¶14No, near the pool of >> Salom. Yeah. >> And we have it happening in Capernaum. >> Ah. >> So, >> uh for example, when he says, uh I need some water and and big James goes and just grabs a bucket of water.
¶15In the gospel account, it's the pool. >> So, it's like, okay, the capital T truth, >> the impact of this moment >> is so much richer for this story to place it here. >> Yeah. >> And at this moment than it would be to do it there. And I think that we're we're okay because it doesn't violate the the purpose of the story.
¶16>> Yeah. You're a fan of that phrase, the the capital T truth. Yeah. And that's what's coming through, you know. >> Um >> because some not everything in our show is factual.
¶17>> Yeah. >> But even when it's unfactual, not factual, I'm trying to make it capital T truth. >> Well, the capital capital J truth, I suppose, is the >> Yes. >> is the most important kind. >> So, you're learning.
¶18You're coming along. You'll be one of us eventually. You've already got the lingo down. >> That's why we're here. Yeah.
¶19They've roped Alex into the most beautiful set on planet Earth to try to make him feel something. >> Yes. Ex. Exactly. If I can get you to feel, then maybe I can get you to think.
¶20Do you ever do you ever feel like when because you know I I've told some people that we're that we're shooting and we're on set and I've been like look at this. This is really cool. I mean this is truly incredible. And they say does it feel like does it feel kind of immersive? And I'm like yeah it does feel immersive.
¶21And they say does it does it feel a bit does it feel special? Do you feel anything? And I'm like, well, I feel the main thing I feel walking around the set is like, this is really cool, you know, but because I know it's a reconstruction, you know, in Texas, >> I'm not like, wow, I'm getting a spiritual feeling of this is where Jesus walked in the way you might do in in Jerusalem or or something. >> Um, but do you get that like are there moments where you're ever immersed in this world? I mean, you've created I mean, I'm looking around.
¶22>> This is a world of itself, you I feel like I'm in in Disneyland for for Jesus. >> Yes. And and intentionally when you stand here >> um or maybe a few feet away. >> Yeah. Like the sight lines, >> you could look everywhere and not not be taken out of the moment >> because you need that for the for the cameras as well, right?
¶23You need to be able to get the >> the more the more ability you have to go in multiple directions, the better the better it is. And it gives us more freedom. >> Yeah. >> Um so, uh to answer your question, the we also film in Utah. >> Yeah.
¶24And there's a set there, >> the Jerusalem set. >> The Jerusalem set. >> And I did the first time I walked on that set had a spiritual feeling, a sense >> um in two ways. One, >> it it was it felt more authentic than Israel because in Israel there aren't, as we just talked about over there, there's not >> it's it it's so commercial. It's it's there's tourist attractions.
¶25It's hard to find a spot other than perhaps the Garden of Gethsemane on the Mount of Olives where you can sit and be quiet and go, "Jesus probably sat here >> and it's beautiful and peaceful and not commercial and not touristy." >> But other than that, it's very hard to find. There's one spot there's like a Nazareth recreation that you can go to and it and they and it feels like this where you you step into the world and you're in >> in it. Yes. at the set in Jerusalem, the Jerusalem set in Utah is where I felt a sense of like, wow, this really feels >> precious and beautiful. Um, and then the second thing is is I really felt a sense from God when I was there.
¶26>> Um, that that the set was kind of built for the purpose of the of the chosen, even though they' built it 10 years before and it's owned by the LDS church, not a Mormon or anything like that. And I had this sense of like it's it hasn't been used to its fullest extent until now. And I also had this very strong we would call it like a word from the Lord or an impression of like >> many lives are going to be impacted by what you do here. >> Yeah. >> And then the church told us no, we we couldn't.
¶27>> The LDS church, right? >> Yeah. They said we couldn't use the set. And I was like so confused. I'm like, wow, I guess I was wrong.
¶28I guess I guess I wasn't I wasn't you know hearing God in that moment and then uh it's a long story but event it's like co hit we weren't going to be able to use the set but then we were able to reach out to them at a certain time and it ended up working out you know miraculously and it's like and we've we've ended up using that set for a year and I would say that's where even when our cast comes into this spot >> and and they get into their mode they get into character we start telling the story. >> Yeah. >> Having this. >> Yeah. And I guess you it would be like bustling with people and you got all the extras all in costume.
¶29That must be, you know, I at one time in London on Good Friday, I think I think they do this every year. There's some group that puts on a reenactment of the crucifixion. And they do it in Trafalga Square in central London. >> Yes. And I saw it once and something about the fact I mean obviously we're in 21st century London but it was a town square and they had this very realistic looking crucifixion and I'm not immersed in the sense of like wow I feel like I'm in you know Jerusalem >> but being in a town square >> and they were sort of riing up the the real crowds crucify him great they're running through the crowds and stuff and >> it was almost like easier to immerse myself in the story that way because it's happening on my my turf like if if someone were going to be crucified in the public square, it would probably be somewhere like Trafalago Square and there it was happening.
¶30And it was it was really like >> bizarre, you know, >> when we filmed the scenes in season six. >> Mhm. >> Where, for example, um I'll take you out there in a moment was where uh was where we filmed Pilate um offering Jesus to the crowd. >> Yeah. >> Him versus Barabus.
¶31Right. We filmed that out there. returned the car the the the um normally that wall that you see >> down there is normally not there uh normally it's just the capernum docks >> oh it just goes out into the lake >> to the lake which then we replaced the backdrop with kind of mountains so it's like the sea of Galilee >> but that's the docks of the cap of capernaum village >> and um >> that scene where we had hundreds and hundreds of of background actors most of whom are fans of the show >> who paid to be there to help support the show and then be part of these big scenes. >> And when we would when we would really get into the scene and let it play out to its fullest extent and Jesus is up there, you know, Jonathan is Jesus and they're really yelling and it's visceral or the scenes we filmed in Utah of Jesus walking through the streets and they're right they're lined up on either side and they're yelling in his face and he's falling down. we multiple cast members including Jonathan, multiple um uh background actors and and fans of the show who were acting it out it and and myself had a hard time kind of recovering.
¶32It was very very >> um visceral, I think, is the best way to to to to feel it. But you go to your point about having it happen and being in it. You It's not like you think, well, we're in first century Jerusalem, but you go, "This is what it would have felt like >> times 10." >> Mhm. >> Cuz it was it was real. >> Sure.
¶33>> And just to go like it's a your your every syninnapse in your body is is on on all it's firing on all cylinders. >> Yeah, man. I think this >> that's what we try to get here is to try to make it as as as much as possible for the cast and then ultimately for the viewer >> that it feels, you know, >> yeah, >> this isn't this isn't hollow, you know? >> Yeah, this stuff's real. It's it's cool, man.
¶34It's it's like >> it's weird. It's it's like like I say, it sort of feels like being I I feel like I'm on a set cuz in person there are little sort of clues you get. It's like the fact that you're in a room, you look up and there's there's an air vent or like these these trees, they're >> made of metal or something. >> Uh yeah, inside. Yes.
¶35They're they're they're kind of like constructed with with grids. The other thing is is that if we there's some sets that you'll go on like this that have to have um like uh the American Disabilities Act where you have to have certain wheelchair accessible things, but you only have to do that if you're charging any money or you're hosting groups to tour. >> I see. Okay. >> We're not We don't do that.
¶36But that's the funny thing, too, is there's moments at there's there's uh some areas in the Jerusalem set in Utah where we have to hide the the the ramp or the the uh the >> like a handrail. Handrail handrail handrail. Yeah. >> Yeah. Handrail.
¶37Uh >> yeah, cuz they just wouldn't have been there. Yeah. >> And they would have been there. So you have to or little floor lights or safety. You have to like hide all that stuff.
¶38Like this right here. >> I was wondering about the drains on the floor. Like do you just do you cover them up? Do you just not get them in shot? have we we either cover them and put put dirt over them or sometimes you you'll replace it with like a something that looks first century.
¶39It's just like a little a little patch that you put. >> Yeah. Sure. Sure. Sure.
¶40>> So, these are the kinds of things that like when it does rain and it and you know that's the kind of stuff you forget to think about is the first season that we we use this space. >> Yeah. >> We did have a hard time draining draining rain water. >> Yeah, I bet. >> And so we had to was like, "Oh, we have to figure that out." >> Yeah.
¶41Cuz this is like It looks like sort of a real tree here, but then these these bits here >> that that's plastic, is it? I thought it might have been like metal or something. It looks like it could poke my eye out. But yeah, like you look up close, there's a little bug on it. You see?
¶42>> Oh, yeah. >> And it's got like the little screws and stuff. So when when you're here, it's like it's I feel just like I'm on a set, you It's like that that slim bit of wood that I can see at the top there, which like I think it it it just keeps you from from really sort of fully feeling like I'm I'm in I'm in Jerusalem. >> And and that that brings up a really interesting thing about our show in general, which is have you ever you've seen the painting of the of the pipe and and it says this is not >> this is not a pipe. Yeah.
¶43And the fans of the show sometimes get sometimes get bummed when I or my wife a man to talk about things like, "Okay, it is just a show." >> Mhm. >> It it's I'm not God. Jonathan isn't Jesus. The show isn't the Bible. The fans know that, of course, and they would never want me to claim I'm God or that Jonathan Jesus.
¶44>> But this notion of that that we are just >> people making a show. We're gonna make mistakes. I don't bet a thousand. I uh you know that that the the suspension of disbelief when they're when they're watching the show and they don't want to think about the fact that it's a set. >> Yeah.
¶45Sure. >> Especially because of how we what we talked about in our in our conversation. Yeah. >> Is about how meaningful and personal it is. So when I say well okay we're going to show you sneeze just a second.
¶46>> Trying to look up at the sky so it makes me sneeze. I guess I'm not going to. I would be curious what an agnostic says when someone else sneezes. Do you say that? >> We don't say God bless you.
¶47I would say I would probably say bless you, but that's just me being being mildmannered. But then a lot of our a lot of our language like the word goodbye means God be with you. >> It's where that comes from. And so but I I would still say that. Although I had a friend recently >> who um a very British friend of mine who who used to say kriy.
¶48He used to say oh criy and he stopped saying it. He's a Christian because he realized that it's a shortening of Christ kill me. >> So he he figured it was blasphemy and had to stop. I I think it's >> you don't get too cheeky about it where you're like I won't say goodbye because I'm an atheist and I don't want to say >> no. Although when someone blesses me for sneezing I feel a little bit odd.
¶49I'm like you know I'm I'm blessed enough. Thank you. You know save of someone who really needs it. You know I feel a bit bad taking taking a blessing off someone else. >> That time and energy you're taking should be >> in lie of in le of blessings we accept donations to this.
¶50>> Exactly. And so one of the things that we do is we have to both accommodate the realism of it, make it real while also accommodating the the room for cameras. >> Yeah. There has to be room for lights and cameras. And so a first century house, the rooms would be smaller.
¶51>> Yeah. >> But we have to accommodate the fact that there's a crew there capturing the people. And then you can look up into that. And and that's where the upper room >> in season five. >> Oh, really?
¶52>> So this is the exterior. of where they have the last supper. In fact, there's moments in the show where you see them go without the wind where you see them come out around the corner. This is where Judas steps down the steps. >> Yes.
¶53>> After having just >> Jesus says, "Let's go do it quickly. >> Do it quickly." He leaves and he comes down these steps. >> Wow. >> The interior was filmed on our stages. >> Yeah.
¶54>> On the other lot. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, but this is uh what we'll do is we'll uh sometimes put a blue screen up there and then replace it.
¶55Yes. the interior or if it's night time with just light, we'll just put uh shoes like some sort of little mini you know curtains and we'll put a light back there. It >> creates a flame >> and and then um you know the scene where >> they where Judas walks down >> this way sees those windows or will be inside the uh the last supper room >> and they'll look out the window. >> Yes. and we'll cut to their perspective and it's >> and it's from up there.
¶56Let me scoop the camera up there. >> But there are some interiors, right? There's a lot of interiors around here like like and we're talking about the facads and the outsides, but these these are >> I'll show you I'll show you. So, we filmed uh multiple scenes in this room from like for example Shuel getting uh dressed like getting measured for his Sanhedrin clothing >> and young visit and going this is going to be such a great Well, and that that takes you down a hallway that we filmed John the Baptist being led >> to his death. >> Oh, this this hallway this hallway here.
¶57>> And then we have another scene you filmed in here in season six. Mhm. >> where uh Caiaphas and Malchus are preparing food, talking kind of backstage, and then Kaiaphas and Malcus exit the rope, go down that hallway. Um the camera follows them >> and at one point Malcus' body passes in front of the camera and we cut to the soundstages in uh you know over >> Oh, really? and he enters Kaiaphas's >> like Harry Potter style where they in the first film where they just sort of have they're going into Hogwarts and someone literally just walks across the front of the camera to cover it up.
¶58>> Yeah, exactly. Yeah. >> Brilliant. It's great to know those old tricks are still being used. That's great, man.
¶59Walking around here, I was I was asking about this yesterday like how I mean this is this is this is your place, man. You built this like none of this exists without you and your idea and you must sort of walk on set on the day. I mean, is this for myself? I created this. I I find it really difficult not to be walking around like I'm I'm the man.
¶60You're like, "Yeah, yeah, cool." Every every single morning like, "Yeah." And I don't know, is that is that something you feel? Is that something you you >> have to to deal with to suppress? Cuz presumably you don't want to let yourself get too in your head about how kind of awesome this all is. >> I think I would have 10 years ago struggled with what you're saying of like, man, this is this represents success. This represents >> I mean for for a guy whose whose goal in in in his career was to achieve you know to to get to make movies and television shows that were successful.
¶61>> Yeah. >> To to come on to a a set that's that's permanent and been built for your show and represents a show that's being seen all over the world. Obviously that's extraordinary. But it has the opposite effect on me when I drive onto the set. There are times when I text my wife and I'll show her a picture and I'll go this this this this came from remember the little short film we did for our church eight years ago and it turned into a phenomenon and now we're we can walk on this set that we own and that >> is part of this show.
¶62Like it's it's so overwhelming, it's so enormous. It's so successful >> that I can't take full credit for it because I I I just am not that good. >> Yeah. I have a healthy sense of I hope it's healthy of I'm pretty good um to the to the metaphor I gave you in our conversation about five loaves and two fish. I'm like I I I bring you know the name of our studios is five and two studios.
¶63I I'm good at bringing >> you know good good bread and good fish. The multiplication piece. >> I just am I'm just aware I'm not good enough to make a show that's this successful. >> Yeah. >> And so I have a sense of of a of gratitude to God.
¶64I have a sense of gratitude to the team that built it. I mean, you built >> you did not plant that tree. >> I wouldn't have been able to have I everyone on on the cast and crew would laugh at the notion that I contributed a single thing to anything on this set other than the ideas. >> Yeah. >> And uh and so I'm I'm I'm very grateful to the team that put it together.
¶65I'm grateful to the fans who donate >> to to to make it happen. >> Um and then I feel like I want to do the best with it, right? >> It's incredible. The view is just looking. I know what you mean about seeing the whole Yeah.
¶66Like check check this out. Like you can just this view here, >> right? You can >> like >> I'm looking at I'm seeing like it's the tree here and this sort of and that's a real pathway that takes you somewhere. You've got this beautiful arch, another tree where we walk through and then in the background you've got that sort of lovely roof over there and it's just >> Yeah. >> I don't know man.
¶67I feel like I'm lost in it. >> One of the best things uh in film making you look for is depth, right? You want >> Yeah. Yeah. Right.
¶68You don't you don't people standing up against a wall never looks as rich as when you've got depth behind you. Exactly. >> So we tailored it >> to to to you know to where there could be moments where you >> you look in in one direction you can see for a long time. >> Yeah. >> And but also texture is really important.
¶69And so the the materials that are used, the texture of it, we want you that when you you you touch the the wall it feels real. And um there's a um there's a well-known uh animation company that I'm blanking on their name, >> but they would they said one of their mottos was we sand the underside of the drawer. >> Meaning we we the the thing you'll never even see, >> we still we we pay attention to detail. >> And so that's a big big ethos of ours as well is that we really want it to be as real as possible. >> I can tell, man.
¶70Like it's it comes out. It comes out for sure. >> Yeah. This is this is where we filmed uh the moment you you you referenced at one point. I think maybe when we were just talking off camera of uh Jesus coming across a wedding that was taking place.
¶71>> Oh, that was here. Yeah. And and the the little boy >> boy recognizing recognizes him and so that was all here. He we walked through that tunnel. >> I see.
¶72>> Emerges, sees the celebration and they pull him into it and he starts dancing. Yeah. So that was all here. So So in that moment it represented Jerusalem. >> Yeah.
¶73>> And we just cover up some of these things. >> Yeah. >> And then but uh most of the time this represents Capernaum. Matthew's tax booth. >> Oh, right there.
¶74>> Yeah. >> So, this was um >> presumably not from not from like season one. >> So, season one >> cuz that that wouldn't have been here, right? >> That was in a a small little set in Texas. >> Yeah.
¶75>> Well, we're here in Texas, too, but about an hour and a half from here >> where uh this woman uh her uh my father helped, you know, finance building this set that she would do short films and tours and Yeah. stuff like that. And it was the only place in the in the country besides the Jerusalem set in Utah that that looked first century. We had so little money and so we were just like, well, we use that. So we shot the crap out of that place.
¶76I mean, every single corner we turned into multiple different places and then we tried to recreate it here. So this is his booth. I can't this this is locked. This >> it's locked. >> We we filmed a handful of of scenes of Matthew in his booth in this >> Yeah, man.
¶77This is uh this is cool. >> Yeah. >> And it's got an inside and everything. Looks like a little >> Yeah, it's like the like you say the detail. I like that phrase, the uh the underside of the drawer.
¶78That's fun. >> No, it's great. So, I I stole it and I said it just means we pay attention to every detail. >> It's like Yeah. I mean, it feels if you knock on it, >> this this one is not >> You can tell, but even then it sort of feels >> the textures matter.
¶79>> Feels right. Someone's been plugging up holes there. It looks like it's uh cuz I mean, you've got to I'm looking at some This looks like maybe some minor repair work cuz this is really outside. I mean, it's kind of windy today. You must have to deal with a lot of um >> Well, the elements are awful.
¶80Yeah. >> Yeah. Like I mean, how what do you have to sometimes presumably you would have to be shooting one thing and the weather just means you have to shoot something else or do you just do you just cancel the day? Can you can you just different actors? Surely you have to like call people up and it's like the wrong scene.
¶81>> Absolutely. >> Does that happen? Does that does that happen? >> The term we use in the business is cover sets. Yeah.
¶82Which means if if if it's if the elements don't cooperate, you can go underco, you know, undercover in in a on a stage. So, we've tried to try to have um alternatives in in place >> u because you can see a you know days in advance although it looks like it's going to rain, we need to plan for we need to have a plan B. >> But Texas is especially brutal. The wind, the rain, the um the sun is has its own creates its own problems. >> Yeah, for sure.
¶83>> You know, it's really really hot. That >> horrible for filming and continuity as well presumably like the clouds coming in and out the shadows and all that kind of stuff. It must be a nightmare. Yes, that's what I fortunately I don't have to worry too much about it. My cinematographer has >> So, why not why not just a great big roof over the top?
¶84I mean, it's open air. Like the the the tops of a lot of these roofs are presumably you could kind of CG some more or or whatever. Like you could presumably have this whole thing under under a cover and and light it. >> That would be extraordinarily expensive. Uh and of course then you'd you'd still then have to the problem that you have on stage is all right, how do we make it look like it's outside when it's actually inside?
¶85Now, you're saying you could potentially put a see-through roof over it. >> Yeah. But then it's also like just like the bits of the wind, like the the sort of the trees are sort of bustling a bit. Yeah, I can I can understand. >> Ultimately, people can can kind of tell.
¶86But how many how many Jesus depictions or biblical stories have you watched in your life? Like movies and miniseries and stuff like that? >> I think like a fair few, but not Yeah. I mean, there aren't there aren't like tons and tons and tons of them. I've seen like um I've I've actually never seen uh The Passion of the Christ.
¶87>> Oh, really? >> I really want to, but I've seen clips from it, you know? So, I've meant to sit down and watch the whole thing for a while, but I've seen that. And >> so, I've seen like um there's all those like YouTube clips that are made by I think the LDS church, which must be on that set, right? Those are really popular.
¶88Uh and then there's there's got to be a bunch of others. >> Like Jesus of Nazareth is a very famous limited series that >> Yeah. Before your time. >> I've seen a depiction of the gospel of I think someone does like the Gospel of John. They just like acted out.
¶89There was a film like I've seen I've seen a bunch. Yeah. >> And so the reason I'm asking is because I'm curious if you agree with me that the majority of them, not all, but the majority have a bit of a staged presented Oh, yeah. >> formal feel to them. >> It's almost like theater.
¶90>> Yes. >> It's a slightly We're sort of angled like this towards the camera and they have your accent >> and verily I say unto you and it's the exact words and and nothing else. And and Jesus is a very sort of >> he's either overly serious or overly like come child. I am I am here to bolster your faith. It's very and there's no sort of um I mean in in the chosen Jesus is kind of like he's kind of like one of the lads, you know, >> right?
¶91And so that's what we are >> I often say we are um working against the the genre. >> Yeah. >> In many ways. And so we have to I think in some ways overcorrect like we got to we're not only going to strive for authenticity, we need to we need to lean into the casualenness of human behavior. Yeah.
¶92>> Even more so than other other types of movies I would make or TV because I want so badly to stress that this is >> this actually happened. This is it was normal human behavior. Let's remove some of the artifice and even and even this is a dangerous thing to say some of the reverence. >> There's a reverence that lends itself to these paintings and to these statues and to the to the basilas and all that that are stunningly beautiful. And and for some people they're very moving because they're they capture the awesomeness of God.
¶93And I s I'm kind of like >> I I I I'm drawn to the fact that that you know Jesus was hanging out on the on the on the on the lake with his friends. I always even when I was a kid would say what would it have been like to sit around with Jesus at a around the campfire. Yeah. >> Just talking. Uh Jesus telling a joke.
¶94I remember in season one when they're at the wedding at Kaa >> and and Peter asks him if he can help Andrew become a better dancer. >> Not even I can do that. And yeah, some things even I cannot do. >> Yeah. >> And and poking fun at his own divinity.
¶95And some people would be like, "Oh my," you know, some people were horrified. >> You got a bit of sick for that, right? Like some people were sort of like, "Are you saying Jesus isn't omnipotent? Are you >> Yeah. So I think that anyone who doesn't get that it's a joke probably has some sort of mental, you know, like distance from from like obviously it's humor.
¶96Obviously, >> it just I think people are just unus to seeing Jesus in that context. They they had this mental barrier I suppose between like to think that cuz Jesus doesn't really crack jokes in the gospels, >> right? >> He doesn't laugh in the gospels, you know, >> right? Cuz cuz what what that didn't really serve any kind of purpose if the purpose of the gospels is is to kind of show his his greatest hits to prove that he's the Messiah >> to say and and and then he walked down and ran into some friends and they had a good laugh and >> yeah, >> the gospels didn't see fit to say that. However, we know that children were >> loved him and and >> Yeah.
¶97And children like is sort of fun >> and yes and we also know that thousands of people would gather from all over just to hear him speak not even to see miracles >> just to hear him speak. So then he delivers all these parables and and uh turns of phrase that maybe in our first uh in our 21st century mindset might not pick up on the humor of it. >> Uh but we can yeah true >> if if you study it. Then more than anything else, Jewish rabbis when they teach are very funny, very uh cheeky. Um well, have you thought about it this way or let me tell you a story?
¶98And it's and so that's the kind of thing that >> I think >> allows us to um legitimately remove the artifice and the reverence. >> I don't think Jesus walked around >> sort of with a with a sort of halo around him. >> Yes. >> It's like he floats sort of through the through the paintings through the through the shows. I mean, think of the paintings throughout history.
¶99I mean, even the the the the Rembrandt, um, you know, the and and the Last Supper painting. >> I I find it impressive and it's and it's beautiful art. It doesn't do anything for me because it's so He's like, "No, I'm looking. >> It's all so heavenly." >> Famously, there's um there's this painting um of the it's like I think it's called something like the body of the dead Christ or something like this. And it's just this sort of gruesome depiction of Jesus like laying in the tomb.
¶100And it's this kind of hyperrealistic, very skinny dead man with his sort of mouth a gape and he's just sort of laying there dead. And it's and it's just brutally painted. And Dossesi allegedly sort of sees this painting and he has to be dragged away from it by by his wife because he's just so captured by it because it's the first time he's just seen >> Jesus as a sort of dead corpse, you know, like it's not sort of laid beautifully in a tomb with angels holding his head. It's just like a dead body. >> And >> I think in the same way >> seeing Jesus crack a joke, seeing Jesus whatever, it's like the same kind of thing that >> that gives the same feeling.
¶101I think Dosseski includes that painting in in one of his novels. Um might be the idiot or something where one of his characters sort of is taken in the same way by it. But it's it's a real story. It's it's >> I uh around the world will get recognized in an airport or at a restaurant or whatever. And so people will come up to say something about the show like >> thank you for making it, you know, we love it.
¶102Thank you. Without a close second, the most common thing they say, one of the first things they all they say, and I'm saying it's probably 80% of the people who say something about the show >> comment on the humanity. >> Yeah. >> They'll, which is a funny thing to say about a TV show or a movie. If I came to you and said, I love, what's your favorite show, Breaking Bad?
¶103Isn't it so human? It feels so real. You'd be like, well, yeah, >> that's kind of like the basic >> Exactly. You you'd expect that. Um the the fact that even believers who believe that this happened and believe that the all the disciples were human beings and even that Jesus was fully God and fully man >> they're like I I never they'll always say I never thought of it that way.
¶104I never realized it never hit me. I mean, I knew it, but I never really like the the humanity of Jesus and the followers, taking them down from stained glass windows, taking them down from statues, from these these pious paintings has been in for many people, >> not just one of the things, the thing, the trigger that has caused them to see the gospels in the Bible and their relationship with God in a or lack of relationship with God in a in a completely >> new way because they just >> it's like I I I knew it, but I didn't really think about it. Well, of course he would have laughed. Of course, he would have made his own food. And >> I can see I can see the same thing like, you know, I'm not a Christian, right?
¶105So, for me, I'm I'm interested in Jesus as a historical figure and I think it'd be really cool. Like, you know, they've made a new like Odyssey film. I'm like, "Yeah, I want to see that. That looks really cool." And I'd be really disappointed if I went to see the film about the Odyssey and for some reason like Odysius is this sort of like weird like unbelievable character. I'd be like, "What's the point in this?" So I I think it's it's almost like more the case for someone who isn't a Christian to just be like, "Oh, finally I can just watch like a TV show about this cool story that I've heard so many times that isn't this like overly reverent >> Yes.
¶106>> thing. >> It doesn't feel like a like I'm attending church." >> Exactly. You know, I I just want to watch a cool I mean, I'd like to see some some I'd like to see a TV show of of all the sort of, >> you know, with with I'd love to have like a a TV show creator or director who's got like really particular views about Jesus because I know you're quite careful to to to be kind of non-denominational and and so that basically anybody can watch this show, but I'd love to see someone just take like a really hardline view. Now, I think this was the historical case about Jesus like he was a disciple of John the Baptist or or some heretical thing. and depict like this historical saga of of Jesus last temptation of Christ.
¶107>> I've not actually seen it. >> Yeah. So, it's a it's obviously it's it's a dream, but but Martin Scorsesei was one of the interesting things about it is like it's it really is that kind of >> what what if this was the case and let's just see what it was uncomfortable for some people, but I think it was like just an interesting thought experiment. But I think um one of my fa one of my favorite stories that I've ever heard about people's reaction to the show took place in Madagascar. >> The King of Madagascar is a fan of the show.
¶108>> Uh 80% of the country doesn't even have electricity. >> Yeah. >> And had never seen a TV show or movie. But they showed episode three of season 1, Jesus and the Little Children. >> When he when the children come across Jesus in this >> Yes.
¶109>> Uhhuh. where he's camping. And they showed it to 300 orphans, >> like street kids. >> They they gathered them together and just showed them that episode. >> Wow.
¶110>> And the kids, it might have even been 3,000. I think it was a it was a large number of orphans >> who then were laughing and loving the the the episode. And afterwards were commenting, >> oh, it's a Jesus is like me. He he also uh brushed his teeth in the stream. >> Yeah.
¶111made his own food, you know, is collect like the notion of of of of the god man. >> Yeah. >> Actually experiencing what we experience. >> Yeah. I' I've just realized it's like when people if people criticize what you do with the chosen or feel a need to like if we're going to depict Jesus, it's like this is this is the holy son of God like no no we we have to have him speaking very like carefully and he has to float around and he has to have a halo and he should look white and and not dirty.
¶112It kind of sounds like a Jew or a Muslim talking about just like the Jesus of Christianity and saying like, "No, no, no. God, God couldn't be a m what? God can't walk around and God can't go to the toilet and stuff." And there's this feeling of like >> the whole point of Christianity is that Jesus is supposed to be this like lowly slave. if he takes up this form. And so he should be walking around like kind of normally and and kicking up dirt and brushing his teeth and stuff, you know, and and to think that he shouldn't be in film, I think, makes the same kind of um I won't say error, but is making the same kind of point >> that a critic of Christianity makes to which Christians go >> that's not a criticism.
¶113That's like the whole point. Yes. >> That's like what we're trying to do. It's and and I there's multiple many members of the Catholic Church, many members of the LDS church that uh their experience through art of Jesus has been prim has been this kind of high church pious >> halo kind of thing. And that's why I've gotten some discomfort from members of that tradition, but a majority of like, >> oh, finally, okay, thank you.
¶114Uh, this is this is the Jesus that I that I thought I knew but always felt when I'd look at a painting felt distant from. Yeah. Do you want to do you want to walk a little bit? >> Let's do it, man. Yeah, it is.
¶115Let's I'm following your lead. >> Oh, I thought I thought I was following your lead. I >> I I don't know where I am. I don't even think I could find my way back to the to the Sanhedrin room at this point. This place is so uh such a maze.
¶116So this is um here's what you might find interesting is >> if we go in here we have filmed >> um a party like this is where we filmed for example uh the scene in season five with Pilate and Herod um all they're all sitting around uh eating food and talking about Jesus >> and uh Pilate's kind of teasing Herod Like I've heard that Jesus is calling himself a king and you know maybe he could be threatening your rule. >> Sure. >> Um in season 7 we're going to be filming in this spot a party um where the followers of Jesus have gathered to to to to celebrate. >> Mhm. >> It's also where we filmed the scourge the So this is >> Oh, really?
¶117Like right here is where the we had a we had a platform a cement platform and there was a a whipping post where Jesus is you know wrapped around and this is where he gets uh scourged uh before the crucifixion and so that it it's it's kind of a it's kind of a strange thing at times to go you know this is where we filmed the most horrible thing >> imaginable and yet we're like, >> yeah, >> we kind of casually walk through it and or we we film other things here, too. It almost feels like should should we be more >> respectful? And that's again where that whole thing of it's it's a TV show. We're we're using this for multiple purposes, including some of the most horrific things imaginable. >> Yeah.
¶118That's what I mean. It's like this weird feeling of like like when we were shooting in the in the Sanhedrin room, you got the great big throne of the high priest, right? And uh before we left, someone was like, "Hey, man. You should you should take a picture on the throne." Yeah. >> And I suddenly I felt like I was in a church and an altar where I'm like not really supposed to go up there and I was sort of like oh god it's like you know but it's this disrespectful it's and then I was like wait hold on >> no this is all I mean even even if it were real I'm I'm not religious but I'm I'm just sort of always a bit like oh I don't know if I'm really supposed to kind of it's a set you know and so you've you kind of have this moment of like this is where Jesus was >> well this is where Jonathan Roomie pretended >> yes >> to be you know it's and so you kind of have this complicated relationship with it I suppose and And >> that that's one of the areas where you and I are similar is is I I I'm not as a Protestant evangelical.
¶119I'm actually similarly less comfortable with >> the the the the hyper reverence that people have for symbols for for icons. Yes. I don't disrespect it of course. I have dear dear friends in in in uh the Catholic Church who take those things very seriously. So I'm not gonna of course >> do something rebellious just to make a point.
¶120Yeah. But I'm also like, "No, no, no. It's it's a it's it's a chair. It's a fun location. It's just a chair.
¶121It's a location. It's a building. >> God is not more present in this in this specific spot than he is." >> Exactly. Right. That's the thing.
¶122I think you you accidentally like I'm pretty sure that within Islam, because they're so uh hesitant to do any kind of iconography or anything. I think even what's known or believed to be like the birthplace of Muhammad, for example, is now just sort of like a it's like a random like motorway or something because there's no there's no shrine or anything. Maybe there are some things that people have set up, but I think >> it's kind of against the spirit of Islam to to turn it into into some kind of place of pilgrimage and and whatnot. >> And I feel like sometimes I don't know, I feel like I' I've been to Jerusalem. I've been to Nazareth and I've I've been to Bethlehem.
¶123I've been to all of these places and I'm kind of like this is really cool but at the same time the whole point yes >> is that this is supposed to kind of be nowhere you know they say oh isn't this the guy from Nazareth you know like what good comes from Nazareth like and the whole point is it's supposed to be this is this is this is a whatever place cuz that's not what matters what matters is the is the person right so right it's weird >> I'll show you here real quick too this is a Caiaphas's exterior um but >> oh yeah to to to the point is I've um it's why I often times have been uncomfortable in the church of the holy supplicer. The one time I visited it, it felt >> the the the iconography of it, the the people were weeping and kissing. >> Yes. >> And and all this stuff I was I was uncomfortable with cuz I'm like >> this there's nothing >> um here. Come on now.
¶124There we go. >> It's pull. Yes. >> Can you put a sign on it? Please pull.
¶125>> So, as you can see, >> this is Kaiapas's >> Yes. Um >> crib. >> Yes. >> Welcome to MTV Cribs. >> Yes.
¶126>> This is this is this is kind of a funny place. That would be funny. MTV Cribs. Yeah. This is the last supper.
¶127As you can see, this is where Jesus broke the bread. >> Yeah. I know what you mean about about like I I I I told you this um this earlier, but when I went to I I told people when I went to Jerusalem um to give them an idea of like what it's like out there, I'm like, you know, dude, we went to um we went to like the actual burial place of Jesus. And they're like, "Wow." And I'm like, "Yeah." And then we left. And then we went to the other actual burial place of Jesus.
¶128It was awesome, man. You know, there's so much of that going on that I always feel a little bit like I I I look at the devotion that's being poured into that kind of stuff. Like someone as you say like weeping at this spot >> at the spot >> and then what happens if a year from now >> and there are people who go there like every day to to to you know be devotional and it's like what happens if in 10 years from now >> there's some kind of scholarly or archaeological discovery which proves that that's not the spot. It was up the road. Then that person you what are they going to do with all of that devotion that they've put into the place?
¶129I think that what they'd end up saying is something like, well, I thought it was there and the devotion was real, you know? Yes. >> But I I feel like you could just do that anyway and say the devotion is real. >> I'm not a big fan of the whole notion of belief for the sake of belief is is important. >> Yeah.
¶130>> Uh I'm I'm a truth guy. So, uh yeah, the notion that Well, I was going to go further. I was like, what what if this place what if there was a fire? >> Yeah. What if it burns down?
¶131>> Is it like I no longer now have a place I can go to experience a closeness with God? >> Yeah. Yeah, I I don't we there must be some story in Christianity about like a really important religious site being destroyed or something that we could probably learn from. I'm not sure. I mean, I I'll have to go back to my my >> I'm not much of a historian, so I don't really know, but >> I think there might be one or two, if you know what I mean.
¶132Um I I think I think this is this is it's kind of it's it's weird. It's like I can kind of because we're sort of looking out of the set now, right? So would you there's a bit of blue here. Is that like >> so? Okay.
¶133So, uh in season six, >> yes, >> this is when we portray uh the the trial kind of that midnight trial that that Caiaphas held. >> Yes. Yeah. >> In in his home. So, this is the exterior.
¶134So, Peter was out. Remember, Peter wasn't allowed in, but John was. >> Yes. >> And so, Peter's out here. This is where he denies Jesus >> three times.
¶135This is the courtyard. >> Wow. This is where >> of Caiaphas. Yes. >> And um so we filmed all of that.
¶136Now they're looking in >> and they're watching the trial, but of course they're looking at blue some trees. Yeah. >> And stuff like this. So when we're filming in this direction, we're showing Peter and and some of the enemies of Jesus and and Malchus is escorting John in and all this stuff. We look in this way >> and there's blue screen.
¶137Sometimes the doors are closed, whatever it is. >> Then when we go inside, we're on stage, you know, another part of the set. And when they look outside, they're looking at this. >> Yeah. >> And so we'll when we're on the stage, we put a blue screen up.
¶138>> Yeah. >> Right here. And we replace it. >> It's like a It's like a portal, you know, like from the game where like it sort of goes goes both ways. >> What's what's funny is when we're filming it like a month apart.
¶139>> Yeah. Yeah. >> So the same scene is being filmed a month apart and Simon Peter is reacting uh and this is Shahar Isaac who plays Simon. Yeah. is reacting to seeing Jesus sentenced and he's horrified and it's like it might be me standing saying you know Jesus well we'll put maybe they have the other actors stand here and go Jesus of Nazareth is sentenced to be delivered to Pilate you know but he's like >> here or it's me reading the script and he's reacting to this stuff and then we film >> you know inside and and we put it together >> it really gives me an extra Um, it makes me appreciate the acting much more realizing that.
¶140I mean, like the these these guys are so great. I mean, Peter, Simon Peter, I I forget it. What What's the actor's name? >> Shahar. Shahar.
¶141>> Yeah. He's from He's actually from Capernaum. >> Oh, really? >> Yeah. >> Uh, he I mean, he's phenomenal.
¶142I mean, he's one of my favorite performances in the in the whole show. >> Yeah. and uh and he like to be able to deliver such a performance even when it's not in front of you like you got your own immovable ladder as well. >> Yeah. Did you see the immovable ladder in uh in at the church of the holy suppl?
¶143This is a really funny story. There's a ladder. there's some kind of agreement between like I think it's like seven different churches or denominations or some some like huge group where no one can no one is certain who's in charge of >> there's one yeah there's like a spot where cuz I think the church is like >> four different >> Yeah in order to do anything you need to get the permission of all like four of them and then one day somebody put like a ladder you can imagine like there's just a ladder up there randomly like up to a window and no one knew who put it there and they couldn't because they had to all agree to do anything. They they couldn't nobody could move the ladder and then it became this sort of whole fur and for some reason they never moved the ladder. So there's this ladder that's I think it's still there now or maybe maybe got knocked off by the window or something at some point but it was there for years just this random ladder because >> that you made that reference I'm like >> yeah the four the four churches or how many there are they because they need all need permission and they weren't all like giving it to each other.
¶144this random ladder just stayed there for for ages. >> And I'm sure probably you have some sort of spiritual meaning for some people. It represents some sort of >> You know, my my favorite thing about the >> we by the way, we call this Wall Street because it's wall and this is Main Street. >> Yeah, we're right back at where we uh where we started now. We're back in Capernaum.
¶145Yeah. >> Um, I was going to say since you mentioned it, my favorite thing about the story of Peter's denial of Jesus is the fact that we learn that Jesus had a northern accent >> because especially in the UK, like to have a northern accent is like a is like a very particular thing. And and people get made fun of their accents a lot for in the UK. I don't know how it is in the US, but a northern accent is a very particular thing in England. And I was reading about this once and somebody mentioned that Jesus had a northern accent and I was like, "What?" And I looked at the footnote and it's because when they go to Peter and say >> your Galilean accent gives you away.
¶146>> I can tell you're one of Jesus followers. You know, you've got his accent and so yeah, Jesus had a northern accent >> which I um I confess when it came time to when we're casting people and we're giving, you know, I said we're going to go with a Middle Eastern accent. That's one of the things that we again tried to do to just give us >> just a little more semblance of of authenticity even though the word 'the' didn't even exist in the first century. I mean, none of these words existed that they're speaking uh in English, but we're like, a Middle Eastern accent takes us away from the British accent that's so common in these kinds of portrayals or the American accent that kind of I really wanted to try to be as authentic to the to the the region, but I'm like to to to get into the specific accents of well that would be a >> that would be a bit much. And I mean the Romans are American in terms of the accent >> we call it's called transatlantic which is a very which is kind of how like the Roosevelt kind of that kind of formal dialect.
¶147I was I did that to try to contrast with the casualness of Yes. >> of the of the of of the rest of the people. So it's kind of a mix of transatlantic. Sometimes there's a hint of of a UK type accent. >> Yeah.
¶148Yeah. They I mean accents can be like I in the original Star Wars trilogy all of the enemies you might not have ever noticed this but all of the bad guys are uh British accents and all of the good guys are American. Nicodemus though >> he doesn't have an accent >> right he has he he's a bit more of a formal accent. >> Yeah. >> Um so he speaks in kind of a formal way but it's not a Middle Eastern accent per se.
¶149>> Um and that was uh I mean he the actor just >> I was wondering if that was the actor or if that was >> Yeah. We didn't even have much of a conversation about he just said, you know, I don't want to be dragged down by an accent. And I I agreed, too. And we also thought as a as a religious leader, maybe he was a little bit more formal, no less. So, it was, you know, I I just don't get bogged down by it.
¶150I just want it to be >> among each actor at least consistent. Meaning that you sound the same in season two as you did in season five. I'm less concerned with >> Yeah. >> You know, if the two of us are talking, if our accents are the same, because in real life, it's they're obviously similar. Another of my favorite performances is is Nicodemus.
¶151I think it's uh it's it's beautifully done. >> He's he's tremendous. >> Dallas, this this place is amazing. Um I'm I'm blown away and it's it's even bigger than everything that we've seen. I mean, I I Lord knows what's down there and what's down there and well, we know what's in there because this building, which is where we started, >> uh is where we recorded our podcast.
¶152So yeah, >> I don't know in what order people will be watching this, but if they haven't, yeah, we sat down for gosh, probably a good two hours and and talked about the show and some of the creative decisions that go into making it and right through those doors um is where we sat. So, >> and the the the topic of Judas led to the topic of cosmic significance and free will and yes, creation and all of those things. So, >> yeah, it it was great fun. And I should have thought about this cuz if I knew >> if this video ends up going out first, we should have like pretended like we're like, "Oh, let's go and walk in and have our have our conversation." But I think we've already given the game away that that it's not always filmed in order. So, however this comes out.
¶153Um, I hope people enjoyed it and and I really appreciate you taking the time to show us around, man. This is this is your home. This is your your space. You've built this up over so long and >> yeah, it means a lot to be able to to come in and talk to you about how it all gets put together, man. >> Yeah.
¶154And when you see it, does it does it remind you of some of the scenes and some >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's the That's the weird thing. And um even last night, I mean, I came here yesterday and then last night I was watching some of the show in preparation to talk to you and I and suddenly I I saw saw a scene and I pulled out my phone and I was like, >> "Yeah, that's where I was." You know, it's uh it's cool, man. It's it's it's special and it's going to make it all the more exciting to to watch even more and and know that I stood in the spot where >> Jesus was whipped and stood in the spot where Peter denied Christ and all that kind of stuff.
¶155M >> I won't be able to watch the show with anybody now >> because I'll just be going like, "Hey, I >> I went there. I went there. She can't do it. I'll have to watch it privately now." >> Well, appreciate it.