Putting Words in Jesus' Mouth? - The Chosen Creator Dallas Jenkins

¶1North America, I'm coming for you. We're doing a small tour, just six shows at some really cool venues. We're going to talk about philosophy. We're going to talk about God, about consciousness. We're going to talk about whatever you want to talk about because there will be an extensive Q&A at every show.

¶2The dates are on screen. The ticket link is in the description. Be there. Dallas Jenkins, welcome to the show. >> Thank you so much.

¶3I've been looking forward to this. >> Me, too. What is the chosen's purpose? Like what I mean by that is it's genre. Is it entertainment?

¶4Cuz for me, I watch The Chos and I think it's a really cool show, but I'm able to be like, "Hey, this is as if I'm watching any kind of show, but for a lot of people, it's maybe something more than that." But how do you see it? >> I genuinely u and I'm not just saying this to dodge a question or to to try to manipulate anything. When I'm writing with my coowwriters or when I'm directing, I genuinely don't think about the purpose. Now, that may sound bizarre doing considering that I'm doing a show about Jesus and as a believer in Jesus and as someone who would love for others to know him and love him more and all of that, that's my purpose in life. But when I'm writing a show, if I don't if I don't get the show right first, if the show isn't entertaining to watch and not and and doesn't follow good storytelling rules and good film making rules, well then none of my my maybe perhaps higher mission calling will be achieved anyway.

¶5So, I just put all of that aside and I go, I want to make a show that's really watchable, that's really interesting, that's entertaining, that can uh that that's good. And it's hard enough to do that. It's really hard to make good television and movies. That's why so many of them are not good. It's why I've made plenty of movies that aren't very good.

¶6>> It's hard to make something good. >> So, that's got to be my number one priority >> when it comes to the making of the show. Now again in life um I'm very pleased to hear that people all over the world have had a profound spiritual reason you know uh uh experience from watching the show and people have said I've converted to Christianity after watching the show that that that pleases me as a as a Christian but um I'm also pleased when someone says I find it entertaining or I just am watching it because it's it's a historical drama. So we describe it as a historical drama. I think that's accurate.

¶7Um, I think the result how the viewer interprets it. Uh, I I used to be much more intentional and and and strategic in my storytelling. Uh, how will the audience respond to this? How can I how can I make them arouse in them some sort of emotional or spiritual or whatever response that uh that I think would be great? I I really as of eight years ago around the time I started developing the show I kind of put all of that aside and I'm like you know the name of our company is Five and Two Studios.

¶8>> Mhm. >> Five loaves two fish. That's what I'm responsible for. The boy who gave Jesus five loaves and two fish was not thinking will this feed 5,000 people. I want it to feed 5,000 people.

¶9uh he was thinking Jesus asked and so I'm giving him five loaves and two fish. What happens with it after that is not up to me. I genuinely practice that even with this show. I'm trying to make the best show that I can. I'm trying to honor God.

¶10I'm trying to honor the character and intentions of Jesus in the Gospels. um how people respond I cannot think about or I'll get crippled because then I'll start avoiding certain things that might be challenging uh that might confuse that might cause people to question um or that might try to please someone like yourself an agnostic or someone you know a non-believer I'm like well how do I get them to >> to believe well I need to manipulate the scene this way or how do I please the Christian community or how do I avoid criticism >> I it's crippling so I just like how do I make a really good show that doesn't violate the character and intention of Jesus in the gospels. If I get past that, the rest will hopefully take care of itself. >> A moment ago, you used the phrase my storytelling. Um, but of course, it's not your story.

¶11But do you think it is appropriate? I mean, you must since you're doing it. But do you understand what I mean in asking, do you think it's appropriate to take the story of Jesus, embellish it with things that are not in the gospels, and be forced into a position of your own choosing where you have to invent dialogue, personalities, behaviors, interactions, and put them on the lips and behaviors of some of the most important people for Christians who ever walked the the face of the earth. >> Yeah. I mean, there's many, many people who would answer no.

¶12They would say, right? And you can find many YouTube videos and sermons from people saying he should not be doing this. Um, obviously I believe it's appropriate. I'm six seasons into this thing. Uh, if by this point I didn't, it would be a problem.

¶13>> It would suck if you suddenly thought it wouldn't. You know, you get to like season seven and you're like, you know what, guys? I'm not so sure about this. >> Yeah. Yeah.

¶14There'd be a lot of people uh including employees whose livelihoods would be dramatically impacted if I suddenly had a crisis of >> [laughter] >> uh of confidence in my decision that I made eight years ago. >> Um I I the reason I believe it's appropriate >> is because um I don't believe I'm violating the character and intentions of Jesus in the Gospels. uh which I I it's a phrase that I use often because um I I think that by the by the very nature of the show and we even say before the first episode there's this disclaimer of sorts that just acknowledges and and makes it clear I'm I'm I'm adding things to the story that aren't there. The most common question that I get that's maybe different from yours slightly is well you're adding to the Bible. That's usually how the question is framed.

¶15Is it okay to add to the Bible? That's where I strongly push back and say, I'm not adding to the Bible because as my coowriter Tyler often says as well, if you go to Barnes & Noble right now and find a Bible and open it, you're not going to see Rama. You're not going to see Attekus. You're not going to see Jesus saying some of the things that are in the chosen. The Bible has not changed since the chosen started.

¶16So, >> um the the whole adding to scripture thing I'm not worried about because we're not scripture. Um, so is it appropriate to to to add things to the story? Um, I believe that it is because I do believe that the viewer knows the difference. >> I also believe I'm not inventing a character flaw or a contradiction to to Jesus's character or intentions and the character and intentions of the gospels. So that's where I would have a problem if another filmmaker did a Jesus project and was trying to explore new ways of interpreting Jesus that haven't been explored before.

¶17So I'm going to portray Jesus doing something. I'm going to show him sinning. I'm going to show him um >> uh doing it's hard to think of an example. I personally would find that inappropriate. But I also I'm not a you know I tend to be fairly libertarian in my approach to things.

¶18I'm like, well, that's their choice and I don't have to watch it and people can watch it or not watch it. Um, so I'm >> um I'm comfortable with it. I know some people aren't. I think the viewers are. I think that what has what has caused it to work is that it's a the Catholics describe it as a um kind of a holy imagination.

¶19Uh, I'm a Protestant, so I don't really usually think in those terms, but I just go, "Yeah, I am like anyone else has when they've done a historical biopic >> of of a historical figure." Um, you try not to violate their character, but >> yes, >> you're going to you're going to fill gaps in and uh and I think the viewers know the difference and when they don't, they go to the Bible. Yeah. Right. And that's where I think it's that's why I think it's appropriate because >> uh we're not hearing from people. It's uh now that I'm watching The Chosen, I don't have to read the Bible anymore because I'm getting all my truth from The Chosen.

¶20I think that would be more of a problem. >> Yeah. And interestingly, this is more a line for I suppose the skeptic or atheist who won't care as much that you're doing this, but >> right, >> this is something that historians do all the ancient historians, I mean, do all the time and just admit to doing so. Ancient biographies in particular are filled with intentional embellishments. You know, like birth narratives for basically any famous figure from antiquity, especially someone who like isn't known at the time of their birth.

¶21This is a story that someone later has sort of said this is probably the kind of thing that would have happened. And I think, you know, even in the construction of the gospels, I think in the reconstruction of what Jesus said, there are times when they seem to slightly disagree with each other. you know, is it um that you should not get divorced ever or is it you should not get divorced except in the case of, you know, infidelity, that kind of stuff. >> Which tells me that you've got a bunch of authors who are trying as best they can to remember the words that Jesus spoke, but are probably filling in details knowing that they might not be how it actually went down. But that's not with any intent to like deceive.

¶22They're not making stuff up. A Christian will want to say, "But the the gospels are inspired by the Holy Spirit and so they would they were guided to truth." But I think it's kind of interesting without that perspective to say that the kind of thing that people accuse you of doing, which is filling in gaps essentially without trying to contradict the message of Jesus. I kind of think that's what the gospel authors were doing, you know. >> Yes. Although I I I would argue that the gospel writers, even if their memories were slightly different, were 100% sincere in that this is what I would die and in believing actually happened and what he actually said.

¶23>> Um I know that when I'm having Jesus walk into a room and say, "How's everybody doing?" Which, you know, it might not be in the show, but I'm just saying something like that. I'm I'm not claiming that that actually happened. I don't know that that actually happened. For me, it's is this plausible. That's our operating approach as is um because I can't I can't know if some of my uh embellishments or additions are are are factual.

¶24I'm trying to capture capital T truth and I'm trying to capture plausibility. So, I use historical context, cultural context, biblical context, artistic imagination, human uh you know, uh common sense knowing that I'm a human being just like the disciples were. Jesus is obviously a very different human because he was also God. But, you know, I know how a human being would typically respond to this joke or this food. So, it's plausible.

¶25>> I don't think the gospel authors were trying to be plausible. I think they were absolutely trying to and and I believe achieved accuracy. So I think there's there's a slight difference there, but so I don't think they the gospel writers were ever saying and then we think Jesus may have done this. Yeah, >> that's what I'm doing. >> Yeah, I see.

¶26I see. >> There there is a difference there. >> Yeah. I I'm interested to the extent that the gospel authors may have been doing that and that's going to be different for an atheist and and a Christian. Um, but yeah, I mean this what what you're doing I don't think it it's only going to be controversial to somebody who cares particularly that you're treading on a very particular kind of subject matter.

¶27Like people get up in arms about this when you do like a Freddy Mercury biopic and you get some of the details and in in the wrong way because they care a lot about Freddy Mercury. Caring about Jesus is like >> on on a totally different level, right? So it must have been quite early on even even just like at the beginning of the project when you started talking about doing such a thing that you were starting to get people saying hey this like isn't a good idea and did that ever give you pause? Did you spend much time thinking maybe I shouldn't do this? >> That's the that's the superpower that I believe that I have is that um for various reasons I just don't care about the reaction.

¶28>> Um there was a time when I did my drug of choice was affirmation and legitimacy for many years. I had a career failure in 2017. Um that caused me to to you know kind of cling to God even more and and and then I that's where I got on that five loaves and two fish plan. >> Yeah. And so, um, I won't rehash all that whole story, but but the the result of it was if I believe genuinely that that I'm doing what God wants me to do or that I actually have permission to do, um, and my wife and and my pastor and people in my life that I truly trust are also comfortable with it.

¶29um and the the the three people that we brought on to kind of check our work, our scripts and our and our episodes to make sure that that we don't fall outside of the boundaries of the character and intentions of Jesus in the Gospels, then I genuinely don't care. I think you're probably similar. I mean, you get I mean, if I asked you, do do you do you take pause in some of the things that you've said that have caused a lot of controversy, you would say, of course not. I've actually enjoyed it. [laughter] you know, um I don't know that I would go as far to say that I've enjoyed it, although I find it entertaining sometimes or I find it interesting or sometimes it causes me to think, but I've never I've never questioned uh the decision because it's but by the time I made the decision, it was very very thought through and prayed through and and and and talked about.

¶30That's the funny thing. I'll just say this quickly is sometimes people will point out something that they really didn't like in the show or something that they thought was controversial or unnecessary or why did you do that? Aren't you don't you see that it's distracting people or or offending people? Why don't you just apologize or why don't you just take it out? And I'll go, what do you think I did before I made that decision?

¶31Like I I I thought through all this think of how how much of an of a of a disrespectful jackass I would have to be to do something this important and then have a YouTube comment come and make me go, "Oh, shoot. Maybe I shouldn't have done that." Yeah. Like that's a um [clears throat] I'm I'm far more thoughtful and considerate than to just >> after the fact question my decision because of criticism. >> Well, I want to talk about some of those decisions that you've made >> and we can start by zooming out a little bit. I mean, you talked about how the the gospel authors were writing what they believed happened and would would die for that truth.

¶32>> And yet, most biblical scholars think that there's at least a different emphasis, right? You've kind of got like an apocalyptic Jesus in Mark. You've got a very philosophical Jesus in in John. John is very clearly writing for a gentile audience, you know, constantly sobbing himself and and explaining what this the Sabbath is and explaining what Passover is and and rabbi, which means teacher, right? >> So, we know that they were sort of writing for different audiences and probably writing with different intentions.

¶33Some think that Mark was writing in order to deal with the recent destru destruction of the temple. Some people think that um Luke's gospel is particularly showing an affinity with the poor and the then the downtrodden. >> You have to kind of construct this like meta gospel. You have to pull the thread and you've got to make a decision like do you present the philosophical Jesus? Do you present the story which is appealing to the gentile?

¶34Do you present Jesus uh to an audience where you assume that they'll know a lot about the Jewish law? You'll have to do some exposition. You know, like there are moments in the chosen when when Jesus is doing something like the the triumphal entry >> and you have one of the background characters kind of quote Old Testament to so that people who don't know the you've got to make decisions like this and so >> I don't know like >> is there a is one of the gospels like your backbone and you pull from the others when necessary or is it kind of just as and when you you kind of pick? >> That's a fascinating question. Um, I would say that the majority of the reason that I do those kinds of um, expositions is for clarity.

¶35It's less about I want the viewer to to hear this and be convinced or converted or whatever in the same way that the characters in the show are. I again, that's not my job. It's not what I tend to worry about as I'm making the show. But I do want as a storyteller, that's my primary goal. You know, you when you I'm I want to cautious.

¶36I want to be cautious. You can say whatever you want. For me, I can't say a meta gospel. I'm not doing a gospel. I'm not inspired by the Holy Spirit to introduce some new revelation about Jesus that's never been discovered before.

¶37>> Uh that's for others to attempt. I'm uh I want to make sure that the story is enjoyable for the viewer. Um and I'm to to to make it enjoyable. I'm not going to change things. I'm not going to go, "All right, I'm going to leave this part out because that's not as fun to watch." That's not my goal.

¶38I'm just saying I want it to at least be clear. I want them to if the viewer is watching the triumphal entry and they're confused by why would they even do this? What is the purpose of the palm branches? Why would they even have why palm? Then they're distracted.

¶39They're not enjoying the narrative. So just like in the movie Titanic. >> Uh at the beginning of the movie, you have this this uh you know um modernday exposition where he you know they're literally telling you exactly what happened and why and how it happened and all that. Now, you might think, well, that's that's boring or that's weird or that's not entertaining. Well, in many ways, it made the experience of watching the movie much better before you because you weren't distracted by thinking of how did the ship break and how did it go down.

¶40You're just enjoying the love story and the tra and then and then feeling the emotional tragedy of it, yada yada. So, it's similar in my show, which is to answer your question about what what do we choose from each of the different gospels? Usually it's to serve the story, the storytelling, what's going to make it more clear, what's going to make it more uh, you know, entertaining. Um, so that when the truth comes, the the the the or the facts, you know, the the which I know of course is debatable, but the the the moments in scripture that are that we are treating as canon, as gospel, as truth, as we're not changing this, >> we find that they're illuminated and and spotlight and become even more enlightening for the viewer because of some of these extra biblical context that we give that sometimes is for entertainment, sometimes is just for clarity. Um the gospel writers, for example, like when you mentioned Matthew, he's writing to a primarily Jewish audience.

¶41He's leaving some of those things out cuz he's assuming they already know it. >> Yes. >> That's what we don't we don't have that luxury. Yeah. That's why we're not doing just a biblical reenactment.

¶42I'm like, the the gospels biblically reenacted as a uh movie or as a show um are actually not really conducive to that. I mean it's been done and many people have been moved by it but and many people have been changed by you know the Jesus film which is verse by verse word for word I personally find it quite emotionally distant quite quite odd um you know Jesus as a main character doesn't actually make for a great main character because he doesn't he doesn't really change he doesn't really grow uh he doesn't >> you mean like in the sense of a traditional >> a traditional protagonist right you know he's >> I just want to be careful there because somebody will clip you saying you know Jesus isn't a great main character is he you Thank [laughter] you for the for protecting me. But yeah, um but it's from a strictly narrative perspective from Joseph Campbell's, you know, uh the uh hero's journey. Um he doesn't >> need to learn something new that he didn't know before and then overcome some personal vice or struggle with advice from a from a sage. You know, it's so um that's why I think when people watch these verse byvere reenactments, they learn something.

¶43Uh, it's interesting to see the gospel they love and believe in visually, but it doesn't really have a kind of an emotional connection to it and it doesn't make for a good television show. Now, what I think some viewers are going to of our conversation to be more critical of is my statement that, well, it doesn't make it for great television, so I need to do things to make a great television. >> I'm not changing again the story and I'm still pointing people. Yes. For the for the for the narrative that God intended you to know, read the Gospels.

¶44Um, >> yeah. >> But what we're finding, which is interesting, is that this context that's given in the context of this show, not in a bookish context, in a sermon context, seems to be causing people to understand the the the biblical narrative even better. >> We'll get back to the show in just a moment, but first, here in ancient Jerusalem, nutritionally dense food can be difficult to come by. And especially for someone like me who finds it difficult to stay on top of my diet. That is where today's sponsor, Hule, comes to the rescue.

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¶48It's complete nutrition while saving your time and your money. And with that said, back to Dallas. >> But also, in a way, the show isn't even about Jesus. It's called The Chosen. >> Sure.

¶49>> In a way, it's really about the disciples. >> Yeah. And for the longest time, the sort of image on like the YouTube channel was a picture of Simon Peter. Yeah. You know, as as the main guy, right?

¶50>> And if you're looking for the sort of traditional storytelling angle, the character arc, the the failure, the learning, the >> you're going to find that with the disciples. And so I suppose you can kind of get it get it that way, too. >> Sure. Have you have Have you seen The West Wing? >> I have not actually.

¶51>> Yeah. So do you know much about it? It's the >> It's a US >> US show about the presidency. >> Um it's called the West Wing, which refers to that whole wing of the of the that So the White >> It's actually similar to The Chosen or The Chosen is similar to the West Wing. I've used it before as a as a model.

¶52>> I see. >> The the president doesn't show up until the last few minutes of episode one, >> which is similar to our show. Jesus doesn't show up until the last few minutes of episode one. >> It's as much about the people around him as it is about the the president. Um, and so our show is an ensemble show.

¶53Jesus is one of the characters, but he's not the main character. He's not the protagonist. And um, yet of course the show in the West Wing is is ultimately about the presidency because it takes place in the White House. Everyone that you're meeting is either a supporter or work or employee of the president or an antagonist of the president. The show wouldn't exist.

¶54The story wouldn't exist. The characters wouldn't be in the West Wing if it wasn't for the president. >> It's very similar to The Chosen. The chosen, just to be clear, the title refers to three different things. It's Jesus, the Jews, and the >> and the 12, right?

¶55Um, >> but you're right that it's it's uh because one of the reasons why the show, I think, does succeed on a traditional storytelling level is because some of the heroes journey things that we do, we do through >> Yeah. Peter, Matthew, and also guest characters. Yes. Like such as the woman with the issue of blood who in the gospels shows up for >> three verses, right? Three or four like most women in the gospels.

¶56>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, [laughter] that's another topic. Yes. But um but but even we'll just use the blind man.

¶57You know, Jesus then did this, found a blind man, healed him, healed, and then we then he went on to the next thing. And we we explore the the the arc of of those characters. Um, >> that for me was always the most brilliant thing about the chosen when it first came out. I remember first watching it and >> the gospels are so are so fast, so quick paced. It's so Jesus did this, then he did this, then he did this, which is like it sort of I've always thought that kind of helps me believe that maybe this is historical cuz that that there's like no effort to make it sort of and then this amazing thing happened and here's the details and you won't believe.

¶58It's just sort of like, oh yeah, Jesus did this. I'm just recording what happened. It's so sort of bizarre, but it does mean that you don't really like oftenimes sort of feel the the time scale. For example, like Jesus is walking around for years doing this and you can read it in 20 minutes. And so >> spending that time with the with the disciples like even even just like after big events, Jesus leaves and the disciples are still left there than just sort of like talking about it, you know?

¶59Yeah. >> Like, well, what now? And then they got to go and like make dinner and then they've got to go to sleep and wake up the next day. It just reminds you that this is supposed to take place over over a period of time, which I think is is great. >> Yeah.

¶60>> But there is a a problem with this >> in terms of timing, which is you've got to construct a chronology, right? >> And it's not it's not just in the in terms of chronology, but the gospels diverge from each other in various ways. Some people will say that they contradict each other, and that's a problem. Some people will say they contradict each other, and that's how we know that they're true. Some people try to reconcile them.

¶61But there are definitely sort of different approaches here. I've already mentioned, you know, slight differences in the things that Jesus says in the sermon on the mount, for example. Um, a big one for me is when the cleansing of the temple happens. This extraordinary scene of Jesus just like exploding in the temple and flipping over tables. In synoptic gospels, this happens near the beginning of his ministry.

¶62And in John's gospel, it happens near the end. >> Synoptics meaning me referring to the the the >> first three. >> Yeah. The first three that are >> The first three that are sort of reliant on each other, >> seem to be more Yeah. relying on each other seem to be more chronological in nature, less poetic, less emotional.

¶63>> Oh, haven't I've got that the wrong way around, haven't I? It's um >> Well, it's Matthew, Mark. >> No, I mean when the cleansing of the temple happens. >> Oh, yes. Well, there's Yeah.

¶64So, in John's gospel, and sometimes I confuse which gospels they come from, but it happens twice. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, I got it wrong. It's actually uh John's gospel that has the cleansing of the temple near the beginning and the synoptics which have it nearer the end.

¶65>> Yes. And so as a creator of of as as a storyteller, you got to make a decision. Some people try to reconcile this by saying, "Oh, well, it must have just happened twice." >> Yes, >> that's why one gospel says it happens at the beginning and it happened one says it happens at the end because it happened twice. But >> to depict the scene twice would be quite a sort of bold uh move of reconciliation of the gospel stories. You make the decision to show it once, to show it at a particular time, and to rely on one telling of the story versus another.

¶66when you're faced with that kind of stuff. Yeah. >> Or the fact that, you know, does Jesus say that you can't get divorced or you can't get divorced in case of except in cases of of adultery, stuff like that. How do you begin approaching like that kind of problem? >> Yeah.

¶67I tend to look at the gospels when something is um this is a great example of of the cleansing where some people would say it happened twice. I go, "Well, I'm not sure if it happened twice. Um, it it's certainly plausible that it happened twice. Uh, but it for the purposes of my show, A, that would yes, be very bold. B, it would be a and I hate to say it, it's just not great storytelling.

¶68I mean, because if I did it first time, because there the same thing with the feeding of the of the 5,000, there's there's a feeding of the 4,000. There's a feeding of the 5,000. There's Did Did he do it twice? H I you know I don't know for certain. Uh scholars debate it, believing scholars debate it.

¶69I know it certainly wouldn't make sense in my show because it would a undercut the power of the of of the one time that we portray it. Um so in the cleansing of the temple for sure I believe that it happened uh closer to the the crucifixion and in our show it's like that that really makes sense as a storytelling device. um in that it it it accelerates his the resistance that took place during Passover week. Yeah. >> Right.

¶70So, having it happen early in that week >> um and then >> arousing the the the eyeire not only of the religious leaders but some of the people and the vendors, you know, that you see in season 5 getting upset. Maybe they would have believed in in him before, but now he just cost them their livelihoods and he told them that they're all wrong and they're sinners and they're be like, "All right, I hate this guy." So, it just makes more sense to me both in my show and in the biblical narrative. Did it also happen early in his ministry? It's certainly possible. Um, and and I'm sure there's, you know, I might have a pastor in my life who go, "Dallas, of course it happened.

¶71I told you that it happened early in the ministry." I'd be like, "Sorry, but I forgot." But, >> [snorts] >> um, that's how we tend to approach those things. It's not a contradiction of the gospels. Um, that by by not showing it twice. Yeah. It would be more of a contradiction of the gospels, I think, if we, for example, showed it three times or if we, you know, [laughter] that's a thing that I try to >> be one way of dealing with it.

¶72>> So, that's what I try to >> every day Jesus just goes in and [clears throat] and flips the tables. >> So, so that's what's interesting for me as a believer and the what the show has done for me personally, y >> is as a storyteller, I'm tasked with reconciling some of these things. And then it begs the question of like, oh well, I when I was in elementary school or when I was in college as a as a Bible student, >> um I I wasn't thinking of it maybe in the same way that I am now. And so I wasn't asking maybe some of the same questions. And so it's caused me to ask certain questions of of my of my uh my consultants or my uh my own study and going, okay, you know, oh wow, that I'd never thought of it.

¶73Did it happen twice or did it not? Well, for the purposes of my show, I think that we're just going to show it once. But then it also it causes me when I'm reading the Gospels because I'm a storyteller to start making certain connections that I might not have made made as a theologian or as a pastor. Um, and I go, "Oh, it actually makes more sense to me now." Um, the even that gospel story uh makes more sense to me now when I consider the cultural context or the historical context or Jesus's intention. So, just for one moment, >> put yourself in Jesus's shoes.

¶74He's also maybe telling a story is a wrong way to put it, but he also has an intention. And so, what what what would Jesus more likely have done if he's if we know and we believe that Jesus is intentionally uh affecting events to cause his death. >> Yeah. >> Right. He like that's one of the reasons why we believe he he raised Lazarus so close to you know around that time because it caused more resistance >> because and it c it it it accelerated the journey towards his death.

¶75I know that he was doing that on purpose because that was part of the plan if you believe that which which I do. >> It also makes sense as a storyteller. >> Yeah. And so I go it in many ways telling the story of Jesus for the purposes of a show has has caused me to understand him more too. >> Well, some people think that that the author of John's gospel kind of does this on purpose, right?

¶76Is that like the synoptics have the cleansing of the temple near the end and this will be part of the reason why he ends up getting arrested. >> Yes. Whereas because John is the only gospel in which we get the story of Lazarus, some people have suggested, well, that's kind of why John like like relegates the the story of the cleansing of the temple to make room for this this Lazarus story. Some really interesting uh debate there as the extent to which people are willing to say that the author of John's Gospel was was willing to like move things around a bit like the date of Jesus's death, you know, to make him the Passover lamb and that kind of stuff. But I think it's worth noting sort of I suppose in your defense here that if somebody's listening to that and going like well Dallas you know clearly like if if it if it supposed to have happened twice if that's the only way that you can reconcile the story you should have depicted it twice the gospel authors didn't >> right >> so if you think that it happened twice and that's the way to reconcile the story there's still a reason why the authors of the gospels thought it's only worth including once at the end of John's gospel uh it says that you know there are many other things that Jesus did and all the books in the world couldn't contain them.

¶77And I'm sure all the episodes in the all the Netflix episodes could not could not contain the the stories of Jesus. And so the gospel authors are quite clear that we're not showing everything that he did, right? >> We're showing a particular select set of things in order to tell you the best kind of story. >> Yeah. And that's often you you that's often our response when some people say, "Why didn't you include this?" >> Uh and we'll say, "Well, Matthew didn't.

¶78This time we're following Matthew's gospel." >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Um the the other challenge it presents for example besides the cleansing is uh the woman who washes Jesus's feet with her hair.

¶79Um I remember when we were we were showing that episode it was a live stream on YouTube >> and uh we portray um Mary the the sister of Lazarus, Mary of Bethany as the one who who washes Jesus's feet >> and and causes Judas to react and all that. And there were people in the comments in that moment going, "Wait a minute. Why aren't you showing Why did you show Mary Bethany doing that? Why? Why?

¶80Why not the woman of ill repreute who who uh and forgive me cuz I do I'm forgetting which of the gospels these these narratives come from. >> Um because there's one narrative where she washes his feet in the home of this Pharisee and then the other it talks about uh and again I'm not remembering which ones but uh but it's John who who portrays it as uh Lazarus's sister. >> And I'm like well go read John. like that some of the viewers who are believers are forgetting that there's that John's telling of the story is that it was Mary of Bethany Lazarus's sister. >> It's like it's a question for the the John the Evangelist.

¶81It's a question for the author of the fourth gospel, not a question for you if someone's saying why are you showing this person doing this? And so I suppose you you have this >> you have this freedom to make a decision as to like which depiction to go with but it's not like you're just sort of >> spitting it out of thin air. Right. Correct. But it might still be it's still a decision to make though, right?

¶82>> Oh, 100%. And and and that's where that's where my our consultants come in. And you know, I have a New Testament scholar, a Catholic priest, and a and a Messianic Jewish rabbi. And I'll sometimes say uh and I really want, you know, I don't typically make decisions unless we're all kind of on the same page or at least even if one of them, for example, the Catholic priest, Father David Guffy, who I'm not a Catholic, so more likely I'm going to disagree with him on an interpretation, but I want it at least to not I want to avoid a red flag like a this is so controversial or so contradictory to our beliefs that it's going to cause a lot of um heartburn or I can't even endorse the project. I want to know that just in case I you know if I I don't want to make an unnecessary controversial decision.

¶83I'm not afraid of controversy. I just don't want it to be unnecessary. So anyway, leaving that aside, that's where I'll come to them and go what what do what do you think? Do do we think it happened twice? Do we think Jesus washed or had a woman washed his feet twice or is it just different versions of that story and we do we do end up making a decision and we are making a choice and I am saying yes this is my my interpretation and my portrayal is mine and my alone and that's why I always >> uh stand behind it and don't ask anyone else to >> because even Jonathan room who plays Jesus might might have a different interpretation and might as as as he's the actor portraying the character might So, you know, I serve your vision, Dallas, but this vision might contradict my own.

¶84And we just we try to avoid the big ones uh the big huge contradictions. And there's there's not actually too many, but yeah, these little decisions often times have I don't want to say consequences, but they do they do cause people to think and that's where I go, that's great. So, go to the Bible and reconcile it for yourself. And that goes back to your very first question. What's the purpose?

¶85My purpose is not to write a new gospel. My purpose is not to say this is the way it happened in every case. It's just to go this is my interpretation. It's backed by uh very very smart believing scholars uh who who have we all have very good and reasoned uh re and reasonable reasons for our choices. But by no means can I claim that my interpretation and my portrayal is or should be the definitive portrayal.

¶86Jonathan Roomie, who plays Jesus on the show, is a devout Catholic. >> Yeah. >> You're a Protestant. >> Yes. >> I'm told that sometimes on movie sets, actors will sort of come up to the director and say, >> you know, I just I feel like my character just wouldn't say this, you know, or like I feel like I I get your vision, but I I feel like, you know, I know this character really well, and I feel like, >> yeah, >> I imagine that probably happens on this show.

¶87Does it ever happen on a theological basis? Does it ever happen such that you that that Jonathan is made somewhat uncomfortable or or is is questioning the the sort of >> lack of Catholic spin and how do you how do you deal with that and how does he deal with that? >> That's funny >> given that you've got the you've got the final say on this. It's your show >> and presumably if it was a big enough problem for him like as a devout Catholic he'd probably say you know I'm I'm not going to do this. >> Yes.

¶88So I would consider it a spectrum. There are moments when Jonathan for sure and I I don't want to speak for him, but I'll just share a couple of, you know, general examples where he's like, I'm I'm not sure, but he's not uncomfortable. He's just, you know, or he'll he'll he'll run it past his consultants, you know, just to say, am I cuz cuz Yes. If he was going to violate >> like dramatically contradict the character of Jesus. Yeah.

¶89I imagine um he would have a hard time doing it and might have to say, "I can't. I I just I just can't do this. I can't." >> Um we've we've never gotten to that point. >> I will say this, we in season six, the crucifixion, we had the most of that that we've ever had where he said there are things and it wasn't about the theology. And this is what's really interesting about it.

¶90I had written my my coowriters and I had written Jesus talking on the cross in multiple ways like somewhat casually like he kind of he at one point he sees one of the one of the characters one of the you know the people and and and makes kind of a a light-hearted reference >> and so it wasn't a theological issue but Jonathan was extremely uncomfortable with the notion that Jesus going through that much suffering um would would would would be able to to say something casual or or lighthearted, right? >> And you'd think that's not a theological issue, but for him it was because um it's like he's going through so much suffering. He's going through so much suffering for a reason, right? The suffering is actually part of the theology. >> Yeah.

¶91>> So to to to loosen it, to make it this casual is a violation of theology in some ways. And and in fact our um our our our David Guffy, our Catholic priest um consultant had similar issues. It was it was this is this is not reverent enough and and and we believe accurate enough to capture what we believe is a very very key part if not the key part of his passion of his crucifixion. Um, Protestants I think are a little less um, obsessed, passionate, I don't I want to use the right word with the the obviously the suffering of Jesus is very important to us, but it's it's a big deal in the Catholic Church. It's a it's a it's kind of like part of the part of the theology.

¶92And um, so Jonathan was said, I I this is the first he actually said to me, he goes, I've never been this uncomfortable. And so then we just spent hours back and forth. Some of it I already knew, some of it I was already planning on trimming because I was like, "Look, I just wanted to see how this felt, but I let's let's let's cut it. Let's trim it down." And so, we finally got to a place where we were both comfortable. Um, and he was a little uncomfortable at times, but but went with it and served the vision.

¶93Um, there were times when I made an adjustment for his sake that I was I would have done it a little bit differently, but I respected his perspective. Um, and I felt like I wasn't by making this change, I wasn't going to violate my vision of it. So, those are the kinds of things that occasionally happen, but for the most part, we were we're in we're in lock step and and and and a lot of his I don't think I should say this are is related to h just it feels repetitive or it's >> Yeah. >> You know, I think I can say it better. >> It's not like a kind of this betrays my faith.

¶94>> Yeah. So, and so that's that's happened that again that that happened a little bit in season six. Yeah. Um uh I wouldn't say we necessarily I mean we did disagree you know we did and I think I think that's where again it's >> the even though the lines Jesus was saying weren't in themselves inherently doctrinally problematic for Jonathan. Yeah.

¶95It was the fact that he was saying anything at all in that moment that that that violated his theology and it didn't violate mine. But I thought okay that's fair and that's interesting and let's let's try to find a middle ground. >> Yeah that's that's interesting. I mean, there's a moment, I can't remember where, uh, where there's sort of reference made to the brothers of Jesus, for example. And >> that's a good that's a yeah, that's a >> you've again, you kind of have to make a decision here.

¶96Did Jesus have biological brothers, right? >> Um, there's just like good biblical reason to think that he did. They're referred to as brothers. There's a different word for cousins, you know, that kind all that kind of stuff. Um, and yet if you asked Jonathan Roie, if you asked him to act in a scene where his biological brother walked in the room, for those who aren't aware, you know, this is a big no no for Catholics.

¶97Yes. >> Because Jesus uh Mary is a perpetual virgin. She never has natural children. Of course, nobody else can be miraculously born other than Jesus. So he he has to be, you know, an only child in their in their theology.

¶98So if you ask Jonathan to film a scene where he met his biological brother as Jesus. >> Yeah, that's fascinating. So what I would say is this, and I don't want to speak for Jonathan. I would say that even in the Catholic Church, and this is one of the things I've actually learned that I didn't know before doing the show, is that there's even a variety of >> of of of uh emphases and beliefs and doctrines within the Catholic Church. I kind of thought we Protestants are the ones who have the 150 different Yeah.

¶99uh uh denominations and the Catholics all are, you know, uniform and one one thing. I've learned that's not the case. Okay, good. I've learned that among the LDS faith, too. I'm like, "Oh, there's people who disagree with each other.

¶100Wow, that's good to know." >> Um Jonathan, I I don't know exactly where he stands on some of these issues that they don't necessarily believe are are uh sink or swim, heaven or hell, heresy or or dogma. um not everything that falls in that category. >> So, I don't know exactly how Jonathan would react to that. You'd have to ask him. But I would say that um I personally believe that Jesus had half brothers.

¶101And I do believe that I I I I uh I believe that that uh when the Bible talks about his brothers, again, you can say what the Greek definition of it was. I believe that they were his uh that they were offspring of of Mary. Um, it's not important enough to me. Nor was I genu, and this is genuine. I genuinely [laughter] wasn't.

¶102Now, I'm going to really be honest with you, Alex. Everything else has been BS. No, but I I I mean this um that I I truly when we were first coming up with with how we were going to approach the stories, I actually said to my coowriters, I'm not really interested in the whole the brothers of Jesus, the family of Jesus because that's its own that's a whole season. That's a whole you could do a whole show on the family life of Jesus. I don't want to hint at it or or or and then not it's almost like if if his brother showed up and and that for like a moment and then they went away, you'd wonder why won't you're showing more.

¶103So I'm like I'm going to I'm going to treat it almost as the as the gospels treat it, which is um that we're going to bring them up. We're going to bring the names up and then you can decide if you believe they were cousins or brothers or not. It's not relevant to the show. Yeah. >> And I genuinely just didn't.

¶104It's like I'm just not all that passionate about it. And so, um, for for both theological purposes and storytelling purposes, I just thought it's it's not it's for the purposes of this show, it's not an a hallway I want to go down, but it's a you've got me thinking how he how Jonathan would have reacted to something like that because it's not >> it's not a line of dialogue that's that's >> theologically improper, but it's meeting his brothers, which then leads you into this other theological problem. So, it's I'm not sure. >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean there would have to come a point where I think someone like Jonathan, it strikes me that he he'd be definitely uncomfortable with it.

¶105But I think people just wonder like when there are creative differences on set, you know, this is enough to to bring productions down. >> Yeah. >> In the best of times, let alone when you're dealing with something so sort of personal and so >> yeah, >> well, religious. I mean, it's like it's like a different level. So there there are so many avenues to to consider here, which is also why I think a lot of people are so impressed by the show that given the the the carefulness that you have to approach it with, given the the four different sort of sources that you have to try to compile into a different way, given that your cast and crew are made up of people of all kinds of different beliefs, >> the fact that it's it's worked >> and you've come out with a show that that is is good and that people enjoy and that is and is telling the story, you know, is uh is is really cool, man.

¶106I think it's really really cool. >> It's it's it's really a I would say it's part of partly a mystery to me as to why the show has resonated so strongly with so many different Christian traditions. >> Yeah. >> From LDS to Greek Orthodox to Messianic Jewish to Jewish Orthodox Jewish. I mean, the show is becoming popular in Israel, >> even among people who don't believe in Jesus, because they're so impressed by the Jewishness of the show >> and and and that I honor and and really lean into the Jewishness of Jesus, which oftenimes hasn't been done before.

¶107>> Um, there's a part of me that thinks that my Protestantism is a is a feature. it ha it I don't know that a a um someone who has a specific church affiliation who who has to kind of honor his churches his or her church's affiliation or else they might be you know in heresy >> uh almost gives me a little bit more freedom and and allows me to kind of tell the story in this way that that just for for whatever reason yes I've I've seen some Catholics who've been offended by the casualness with which Jesus talks because they see Jesus more reverently, more pious. >> Um, but I do think there's kind of a my Protestant libertarianism approach has I think been part of the thing that >> that has allowed it to to appeal. Now again, the critics say, "Well, yeah, exactly. That's why, you know, it should be more divisive.

¶108The gospel should be more divisive. They are divisive. Jesus was divisive. You're too ecumenical. You're you're trying to appease too many people." I'm not trying to appease too many people.

¶109just happens to be because I do believe I'm focusing not on the theological differences, most of which came 200 years, 300 years, 500 years, 2,000 years later. I'm focusing on I'm just telling the story of Jesus. And interestingly enough, the majority of Christian traditions agree on the histo, the culturalness of it. >> Sure. >> So that's but it's it's it's a it's an interesting thought experiment as to why.

¶110You know, there was something in particular I wanted to ask you about in that you were saying that you don't add anything to the story that you don't sort of >> the Bible >> to the Bible. Right. That's what I mean to say, right? And that you wouldn't do anything that contradicts the nature of Jesus or anything like that. There are a couple of occasions watching the show where it seems to me that you've made quite a significant theological decision with regards to Jesus.

¶111That you've put words in his mouth that aren't in the gospels that are not just like I mean you I've heard you sometimes say like every time Jesus says hello when he walks into a room you know that's not in the gospels and that's fair enough. But you know and this isn't the example I have in mind but when Jesus says I am the law of Moses >> and that's not in the gospels. >> Yeah. >> That's not just like saying hello. Right.

¶112And I know a lot of people were like sort of hold on that's that's too >> significant a thing to have Jesus say without scriptural authority. >> Right. >> That must have been a conversation that you had because by the way as I'm sure people like I I can't be the only person who thinks this. It's just one of like the coolest moments like cinematically. >> I loved it >> of the entire series.

¶113It is just like phenomenal television, right? >> And was there a feeling of like >> well Jesus didn't say this but it works so well on screen that maybe we should just do it. Yeah. >> Or was there something else going on because seriously or the the little James scene or or P there's there's moments that uh for example when when Rama was killed in season 4. Sorry if you have spoilers show.

¶114So, it's like I was I was gonna make this joke earlier like you're telling what happens in the series and you're like, "Oh, spoilers as a joke." But there are actual >> Oh, yes. I and I probably just gave one away too much because I'm sure there's plenty of viewers who haven't seen the show, but um where uh the the reasons he gives for not raising her. Uh the what what what what I think some of these moments qualify under is if he would have said them, it highly likely would have been in the Gospels. >> Mhm. >> That's that's the the the most the thing that I tread most carefully around is >> you're right.

¶115It's not just him saying hello. This is him saying something that he really likely didn't say because if he would have said it, >> it would have been recorded. >> It would have been recorded. >> Yeah. And that's where I think the fair-minded critics, the ones who do like the show or or are comfortable with my additions, [snorts] >> uh, have the have the the most leg to stand on when they when they do criticize or when they are uncomfortable >> is this isn't plausible anymore, Dallas, because it if it would have happened, it would have been in the Gospels.

¶116And I think that's the the fairest argument against what I do. I'll say this. I believe Jesus is God. I believe that Jesus um was was a was an author with his father of the of the law of Moses. So to use your example, uh there's a moment in in season uh three where uh you know that they're saying because of the law of Moses, we we now have to punish you.

¶117And he says, "I am the law of Moses. >> Um I I believe that I'm on solid theological ground." Mhm. >> Because I do believe that Jesus is the fulfillment of the law of Moses. I believe that he he's the word, you know, he's uh the he he he represents the law of Moses. He you know, I believe I'm on solid solid theological ground.

¶118But you are correct. Yeah. >> That I'm making a theological statement that Jesus didn't make in the uh in the wording that I gave him. And that's that's dangerous. >> And there's like it's not just about well, is this true of Jesus?

¶119Is it true that he was the law? It's also would he have said that there and then? Like for example, if like Jesus early on in the series walked into a room and someone said, "Who's this?" And he said, "Oh, hello. Um, I'm God incarnate in the flesh. Bow down and worship me." >> Yes.

¶120>> I think that would be inappropriate. And you get a lot of flack. And you could say, "But look, man, I think that Jesus was God in the flesh, incarnate. Like, that's who I think he was." And people would say, "Fair enough." But we don't know all of the reasons why Jesus said this at this point and that at that point. Why he was unclear here and very clear here.

¶121And that I am the law of Moses moment is is a is an extremely provocative. It is very Jesusesque. It's the kind of thing that he would say and and really annoy people. Right. So I I I agree and I'm on your side.

¶122But then again, I'm coming at this from someone who is looking at the historical figure of Jesus. I think half the things that he said to say in the gospels themselves, he probably didn't say in those words. So, it doesn't trouble me at all. >> Right. [laughter] My critics would go, "Of course, Alex, >> yeah, I don't care." You know, I think it's great TV.

¶123You know, >> you you endorsing my show has [laughter] has mixed uh >> Yeah. Sorry. I mean I mean it's very very bad and very very challenging and I want to become a Christian. >> I don't like it because it makes me [laughter] want to become >> want to be a Christian. Yeah.

¶124>> Exactly. Um, I think that that's one of the most >> such an insightful question and thought and this is why you're so good at what you do and why you're so brilliant. Um, you you you are absolutely correct that it is um it raises the question of most of my claim that everything that I'm putting into the show is plausible. >> Yeah. >> And I would say um again I I I accept the criticism and think it's fair.

¶125I would say that I'm from in my defense or in my intention is I'm also trying to capture capital T truth which I believe comes from the entirety of scripture >> and and and be because I believe that Jesus was both man and God and was part of creating the world. um uh that that when Paul was writing some of his letters, some of his theology was coming from inspiration from God the Father and God the Son. Again, we we don't need to get into the whole Trinity uh debate, but um so there are times when I acknowledge that I am, I believe, capturing the plausible character of Jesus as God in the entirety of scripture as opposed to just Jesus of Nazareth, the historical figure, would he have said this? Yeah. >> The reason I wouldn't include him saying, "I'm God incarnate, blah, blah, blah." I believe that he intentionally didn't say >> um >> for for for various reasons um that are a whole another, you know, podcast.

¶126Yeah. >> But um I do believe I am the law of Moses is the kind of thing Jesus would say that doesn't >> impact the narrative of the story. um that in the gospels um the the scene with Jesus and little James where I where I I I present a theology of suffering and and and healing that that uh we know Jesus didn't give or at least it wasn't recorded that he gave that but that I do believe is theologically correct and represents >> uh the the the the divine nature of of Jesus but it's it does create a unique >> problem a for you as a as a skep skeptic or as a as a non-believer. Um, and for for me as someone who's who continually says everything we do in the show is plausible. Sometimes it means um theologically holistically plausible maybe not historically plausible.

¶127>> Did anybody advise you not to have that line? Like script advisers, did did Jonathan Roomie read it and go like, you know, I'm not sure. Everyone loved it. >> Was it because I mean it, as I say, it's great. It's great TV.

¶128>> Yeah. my my all of my consultants um loved it because they did believe that it it was um theologically conceptually accurate and the kind of thing Jesus would say. I mean, gosh, my my uh my Messianic Jewish rabbi was like might be his favorite line in the whole [clears throat] show because uh what he's always concerned about is the the often time Christian belief that once you know Jesus was kind of getting rid of the Jewish >> traditions and the Torah and was kind of replacing it with his own uh theology and uh and so when he's like >> endorsing the law of Moses and that he is the the the uh the embodiment of it, he really loves Yeah, it's a very Matean uh kind of idea. >> Um, you mentioned >> uh little little John, >> little >> little James. So, I keep doing that.

¶129I I keep >> So, one of our actors once uh it's in our blooper reel actually. Um Shahar Isaac who plays Simon Peter in in a scene called refers to him as Little John. Yeah. And because he's thinking Little James, but I there's also John and Fire Tuck and yada yada. So, you're okay.

¶130>> Little James. Yeah. Yeah, I'm in good company, I suppose. Um, >> little James uh has a disability. He walks with uh a cane >> with a with a like a >> severe limp, disfigurement in his back and >> Yeah.

¶131>> And there's this scene invented for the chosen. >> Yeah. >> Wherein I mean Jesus sends his disciples out to go and heal people of their ailments. And I find this extraordinary because little James is like, you know, well, what about me? Like, why why haven't you healed me?

¶132And then Jesus says the classic Jesus thing where he goes, do you want to be healed? Yeah. >> And this is what he says to people before he says, do you want to be healed? >> And they say, "Yes." And he heals them. >> And he says to little John, to little to little James, "Do you want to be healed?" And he says, "Yes, of course." >> And Jesus says, "No." >> Yeah.

¶133And that to me is such a such a bold thing to put on the lips of Jesus. >> Yeah. >> Because again, even more than the sort of law of Moses thing because not not only because some people um people debate the extent to which Jesus was healing people. Was it just the people who came up? Was it everyone around?

¶134Like and not only that, but there then follows this what what would be called in philosophy a theodysy which is the attempt to reconcile you know evil in the world and suffering with the goodness of God where Jesus >> sort of explains he says well like think of the story you'll be able to tell you know think of think of the the the role that your suffering will serve when you're able to sort of use it in this way and then Jesus makes a reference to the book of Job >> uh because the same thing kind of happens to Job and in in Job we get this this sort of idea that that maybe there's some reason but even in the book of Job God never tells Job why he suffered he just tells him you couldn't possibly understand right >> but in Jesus saying even even just just very briefly just saying to to little James well think of what you'll be able to do because of the suffering >> you're providing a theodysy >> yes >> which itself will be philosophically controversial >> yes >> and then you're putting it on the lips of Jesus even though it's something that he didn't say I think, you know, off the top of my head of all the things that would most sort of worry me if I were your adviser, >> um, not that I'd be in a position to be, but you were like, look, how I want to make this biblically fair and accurate. I don't want to annoy people. That probably would be the biggest red flag for me. So, >> why why even bother? >> Yeah.

¶135Well, it started when the actor Jordan Walker Ross, uh, he had auditioned on video from the neckup, >> right? >> Did a good job. I do what's called a call back. So, he comes in. Now, I'm meeting him in person.

¶136And he comes walking in >> um abnormally short because of his disability. He's had extreme limp, a disfigurement in in his in his back and leg, one of his legs. And I was like, "Oh." And I knew right then and there after he gave another really good audition, I talked about this with my wife. I'm going, "If I cast him as Little James, I'm I I I knew everything that you're saying right now. I'm like, I have to address this.

¶137Unless he gets miraculously healed, the actor before the first day of filming. >> That would have been something. >> That would have been something. Or halfway through the show, I might have been like, "No, no, no. Just can you wait until the next season?

¶138I'll make this part of the show." >> Um, it so I was like, I am by definition if I cast him painting myself into a corner and I have to do something like what you just described. everything you just said, of course, much more brilliant than I could have said it, but um he I had to address I'm like I'm going to have to face this because obviously little James is going to ask Jesus at some point, you're healing everybody else, why not me? And in the Gospels, there is not a record of someone asking Jesus personally for healing and not receiving it. Now I and my scholars and do believe that there were moments when he didn't heal people such as he could have you know he had an opportunity to stop by this city. He didn't do it.

¶139Um there's a range of of beliefs on as you just said on whether Jesus healed everybody. I I know a pastor who a very prominent one who believes that there were no hospitals were basically rendered useless during those three years of his ministry. I don't share that belief. People died of course all around him. Jesus attended funerals I believe.

¶140So clearly I don't believe he he healed everybody but there isn't an instance in scripture where he's asked for it and he denies it. So yes, >> very dangerous, >> worrisome for sure. But this is again falls under that category of the the theology of suffering throughout the course of scripture and throughout the course of humanity I believe is reconcilable. Um, not only does you you mentioned that G that God doesn't necessarily tell Job why he's suffering, >> but Paul and Peter both address things like suffering after Jesus was here. >> Yeah.

¶141>> So, when Peter is saying things like these trials and tribulations strengthen us and and Paul is talking about the thorn in his flesh that he's asked Jesus to remove, Paul talks about suffering, the book of James talks about suffering. These are all people who either had um encountered Jesus >> or uh in the nature of Paul who who didn't encounter him in person but was clearly you know had some sort of significant religious experience spiritual experience and and uh claimed inspiration from God that I believe is is true. Uh, I believe that that I was on solid theological ground, but again, it does fall under the category of >> would Jesus have said that. >> Well, G Jesus says, but think of the story that you have. Speaking to little James here, especially in this journey to come if I don't heal you, >> right?

¶142>> To know how to proclaim that you still praise God in spite of this. To know how to focus on all that matters so much more than the body. to show that you can still be patient with your suffering here on earth because you know you'll spend an eternity with no suffering. And like this is the kind of thing that people say today to people who are suffering like maybe there's a reason for it. >> But like that is a that's a very particular view of suffering.

¶143Mhm. >> You know, some people take the view that that, you know, evil is a is a privation of good and it's a result of of sin and the fool. And some people think like all kinds of stuff like the view this sort of functional account of of suffering that suffering exists because it serves some higher order purpose is a view that some people hold, but it's a view that other people think is like philosophically bunk and ridiculous. >> And you put that in the in the mouth of of God himself, right? Yeah.

¶144Like, and that is a that is that is quite that is quite a moment. Like, you know, I understand it's a little bit weird having a character with a disability and not addressing it, but >> maybe that was that ever like an option for you just to think, well, we'll just we'll just not address it. Cuz the thing that's really weird for me >> is that he's sending him out to heal implying that like >> what little James like doesn't have the power to heal himself or he couldn't like you know I like the idea of him sort of Jesus saying no and he's like okay okay fine and then he like runs over to Peter and he's like Peter Peter heal me heal me you know >> exactly >> because because because why not you know like >> and and I kind of wonder what it opens all these questions like if I mean if Jesus has given people the power his disciples the power to heal if Little James went to Simon Peter and said, "Please heal me." Simon Peter doesn't know that Jesus has had this conversation with him. So, would he like would he try and be like, "Oh, I can't for some reason." Or, you know, would would and that would imply that Jesus is somehow literally like preventing it from happening, which seems >> seems like we're on very very delicate ground there when you're saying that that >> I have to admit I have to freely admit I didn't consider [laughter] Peter out on his 2 by two coming across little James. You know what?

¶145while I'm on the while I'm in this is clearly working, let me do let me uh heal you. That's a very f that's a fascinating uh >> Yeah. Because if the view is that like or or just whoever James was was with. If if the view is that that person unknowingly would just try to heal James and having the power to do so should be able to do so, but God would have to sort of intervene and stop it. >> Yeah.

¶146>> You've just opened the door to to putting in the mouth of Jesus the view that if if you try to heal this guy, I'm going to stop that. I'm gonna stop that from happening. Which that is that is profound, right? That's a that's a big that's a big thing to do. Makes me wonder whether it was like >> worth the difficulty of of of addressing it at all, you know?

¶147>> Yeah. So, that's the the I I have a long answer to your question. I'm just going to have to ask for your patience with with it. I I hope it'll be interesting, but but it's so important. And this is again I I want to compliment you on on your your insight because this really does bring up cosmically significant questions.

¶148So I'll first start by saying to make it clear little James in the Gospels was not handicapped. I I almost assuredly right >> um >> the decision to do this came when I decided to cast Jordan. >> Yeah. to to to escape this the conundrum and the problem that that you are are very articulately communicating and that I absolutely faced would it just meant to cast someone different and to not put him in the show? >> Mhm.

¶149>> Um so the the real question is why did you cast him and then why did you then choose to to to to portray this which we as [clears throat] you've said if Jesus would have said this out of his mouth it almost assuredly would have been in the Gospels. So this where this is where it comes to why I even believe what I believe. Um so I do believe Jesus is God. I do believe that the Bible is God's inspired word. So I do believe and I don't think that I could have had that scene if I wasn't a believer because it it if I don't believe that that suffering um that the theology of suffering and healing and sometimes not healing if I didn't believe that it's reconcilable by a the Bible by my own personal experience by people such as um I don't know if you know there's people like Nick V a famous Australian who has no arms and no legs.

¶150Oh yeah. Yeah. >> Is a very well-known evangelist. Johnny Ericson Tatada is a uh very famous uh Christian teacher and author uh who's who uh was um paralyzed in as a teenager in an accident and um and has never, you know, has never been healed. She lives in fairly consistent pain.

¶151Um they talk about this all the time. They have tremendous faith. Um, and there are many Christians who were uncomfortable with the scene because they said, "No, Jesus healed everybody and Jesus still heals today." Yeah. And if uh, and if you're not healed, it's because you don't have enough faith. >> So, I I don't believe that because I look at the totality of scripture, which I believe was inspired, and I see the Apostle Paul, uh, the Apostle Peter sharing this theology of suffering and pain.

¶152and um and and and and then of course the the the the author of the book of James saying similar things. So that's how I I reconcile it and believe that I'm on solid ground theologically when Jesus says it. But I don't know that I could have done it if I didn't believe that because then it to your point it doesn't >> I'm I'm putting words in Jesus's mouth that >> um can only be reconciled >> by past and future. uh meaning past before the gospel before first century um and and afterwards and so that is where I I I have to unapologetically say that um yeah this was a theological perspective that I have and I'm going to stand behind it and I'm going to put it in a show and that's where I also say um the difference between the show and the Bible is that the show might not always be factually True. >> Mhm.

¶153>> But I hope that it captures capital T truth, the totality of scripture. Um, so it's uh why, you know, when you say if Peter did have the ability to heal and tried to heal little James, God's preventing it. That brings up a whole another huge issue of what about today? Um, if if we believe, as I do, and have even seen some people be healed of of some malady. um when they're when someone isn't and a person who has healed someone previously >> goes to heal this other person, is God stepping in and preventing it?

¶154Yeah. >> Or is this part of his overall plan from the beginning of time and God lives outside the economy of time and space which is why um a day is a thousand years and all I mean these are you've done entire episodes just on this exact issue. Yeah. and I have studied, you know, in college, you know, entire courses on this exact exact issue. So, I'm not going to be able to solve it right now.

¶155And a YouTube comment in response to me is not going to solve it either. But it >> it's very fascinating that you're bringing up from one scene in the show, I think, extraordinarily important and significant theological questions. >> Um, so all I can do is say I believe this. I believe it's plausible. I believe that um I'm on solid theological ground.

¶156Um, but I but I also acknowledge that at the end of the day, you still have to read the Bible versus my show. Uh, if if you're looking for what I believe, like I even I as a fan of my show say if you're struggling, go to the Bible, go to your pastor, go to, you know, don't rely on the show as the sole uh as a sole source of your theology. I'll close with this. There are thousands of people all over the world who have reached out to us or have met me in person and said that that scene uh illuminated for them something that they had previously not for like I've had people say to me, I've been suffering for 25 years >> and the the questions I always ask or the answers I always get back are, well, you just need to have more faith or God you know, God is teaching you something. Um, you know, all of these somewhat pat answers and um and they say that scene for me unlocked or, you know, or cracked a code that I hadn't previously been able to to understand.

¶157Now, in a vacuum, that's a problem. >> If the show was solely responsible for their theological understanding, that's a problem. >> Um, because I don't believe that the show should be. But fortunately, I believe the show is illuminating a truth that I believe already exists in scripture that some people just maybe don't understand or haven't fully reconciled. And and again, like someone like yourself >> who who might look I I don't I haven't seen enough of your content to know how you would how you ask or think of the problem of evil.

¶158Um I've I've seen other um episodes of yours, but um that the problem of evil, the problem of suffering is one of the biggest impediments to people believing >> and also for those of us who believe sometimes is one of the most comforting. >> Yeah. >> I I suppose it's conspicuous that Jesus doesn't directly address it for that reason. um in the gospels. I mean, and it's one of those things where you think if something is so important and so significant and yet Jesus doesn't talk about it, it seems like maybe there was a reason why he didn't talk about it.

¶159That there might have been like an intentional omission of this from the ministry for all all kinds of reasons. >> Yeah. I think the one the one exception to that would be that he does address the issue of belief >> and he does talk and I'm not going to give exact scriptural references. I don't because I I can't remember the the the the the exact verse but where he he will talk about things like >> um you have to in order to believe you have to see a sign. >> Yeah.

¶160>> And and and so sometimes he would give signs to people for the purpose of their belief and other times he wouldn't you know do a miracle because he I would and I always want to preface this by saying because I'm I'm not a pastor. I don't I'm not I'm not a an apologist. I I I I always tread carefully, but my interpretation is that um that often times he's not doing a miracle because he wants or expects or or or from the creation of the of of of the world uh is intending for this person to believe for different reasons. He doesn't want to always, >> you know, you shouldn't always just need a miracle in order to believe. And so he he's going to reveal himself to you in different ways.

¶161Um, again, these are all significant issues that are addressed in entire podcast episode separately, but um, I would say he's I don't think he's silent on the issue of miracles or or um, belief or a miracle as a means to cause someone to believe. Well, I mean the the problem of evil in particular, like the the there's no sort of verily I say unto you, the reason that suffering exists is because it allows us to achieve higher order goods that are conceptually parasitic on lower order suffering. You know, that that doesn't that's not how Jesus operates. You know, >> he didn't he didn't say that. No, I again I would say his the suffering he did experience >> for um the purposes of >> you know when you when you read Isaiah and say by his wounds we are healed.

¶162And if you believe as I do that that's referring to Jesus, then that um then then then Jesus is exhibiting uh if if not outright saying explicitly he is exhibiting the the scriptural truth, the theology of suffering and pain and and what the reasons could be for that. But yeah, you are correct that the gospel accounts don't have Jesus making it easy >> by just saying it. >> Um like like maybe I did in the show with Little James. It's not just about the words that the characters say in The Chosen that provide this difficult challenge as to how to present a a person or a character. It's also personality.

¶163It's context. It's motivations for particular behaviors that aren't made explicit in the Bible. And the most interesting and obvious of these to me is the character of Judas Scariot. >> Yeah. who is a a brilliantly developed character in your show again in terms of storytelling.

¶164I mean, he's such a compelling character and and and you sort of follow this thread and and it also helps you to understand why people were upset about Jesus, what what kind of Messiah they might have been expecting and how that was not fulfilled. And >> the gospels are a little bit unclear on why G Judas betrays Jesus. Yeah. Like in some of the gospels it seems to be straight up just money. Um like in in Mark and Matthew Judas just takes some money and he does it for that reason.

¶165Um in one it's specified that it's 30, you know, pieces. >> Yeah, they mention that that's what happened. I don't know that they say he he betrayed him because he wanted 30 pieces of silver. That was the entire reason. And in by the time you get to Luke's gospel, you get this this idea of Satan entering Judas, which is this >> sort of sends a chill down his mind a little bit, right?

¶166And the same thing in John's gospel, it's and and you know, you you depict this the the moment of of sort of handing over the the bit of bread to indicate that that's who it's going to be. And and Jesus in the full knowledge, Satan enters him at that moment and he says, "What you're going to do, you know, >> go and go and do quickly kind of thing." So there's this sort of difference. But the other thing about Judas and why he's so interesting is that people always debate like, you know, is this a man who's in hell? Is this a man who's in heaven? Is this a man who was evil?

¶167Is this a troubled soul who just like the rest of us fell short and sinned? In Matthew's gospel, Judas repents before he kills himself. Right. >> Yeah. >> And yet the gospels also have Jesus saying that it would be better for the person who betrayed the son of man that he were never born.

¶168Right. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> You have to make a decision here. Is Judas this evil, malicious demon like infested man who betrays Jesus or is he this sort of understandable man who went wrong.

¶169There is a fear that in modern cinema and television we humanize villains too much. It's like the Joker thing where it's like it's definitely true of human psychology that people are complicated but for some people something like the Joker >> it seems to rationalize uh like murderous behavior. It sort of >> like sort of begins to dissolve this this right and wrong which some people are a little bit scared of and in the story of Jesus that seems seems really important. So just just tell me how you begin approaching a character like him. So I think the simplest belief which you can draw from the gospels of Jesus knew he would do this.

¶170>> Mhm. >> Uh that the gospels say that that that he knew when he at the beginning of his ministry that one would betray him. I do believe that >> um Satan entered into him during Passover week and and and and had a bit of a puppet master thing. I think there's I mean I think that that's true. I think that there was a demonic influence on on Jesus on sorry Judas.

¶171[laughter] Please don't pull that clip out. A demonic influence on Judas. Um um and everything in between. I don't think that that that Passover week Judas went from allin on Jesus to all of a sudden Satan entered him and he went boom turn. He was going this way and then he turned the other way.

¶172Um, there are people who believe that and and I and I have even there there's multiple people who comment all the time. They they never they like the show but they hate my portrayal of Judas because they're like, "He was evil. >> Jesus knew he was evil. John says he was greedy. >> He was selfish.

¶173He was greedy." I just don't find that the totality of scripture, the totality of the historical accounts, the totality of human common sense, uh when you you know, and this goes to how I interpret scripture. Um I the reason that I believe scripture is true isn't because I can reconcile every single thing that I read in it. It's because um as uh I'm forgetting his first name, his last name is Wallace. He's the the the detective um who does a lot of apologist uh teaching and forgive me for not remembering his first name, but he talks about how as a as a homicide detective, he rarely has all the pieces of the puzzle. >> Yeah, sure.

¶174>> But he has let's say he has 97 out of a 100red. Well, the conspiracy theorists or the skeptics or the people who aren't willing to accept the the the reasonable doubts go they're going to focus on those three missing pieces. Yeah. I I go I don't have the pieces of was Judas someone who believed that Jesus would be a conquering messiah and therefore his disappointment led him to want to betray him and force the issue which is how we portray it. We portray Judas as yes, there's some greed.

¶175Yes, there's some selfishness. Yes, there's some demonic influence. Um yes, there's also some um god directed um uh you know predestination of you know Jesus is going to die and here's how these are some of the chess pieces that are going to be moved to make that happen and Judas is one of them. All of that I believe then I'm left with okay for three years he was one of Jesus's closest 12 followers >> clearly a dear friend participated in healing participated in like not only saw Jesus do it but according to the gospel accounts and my beliefs did it as well um it's not rational to me that he just >> 30 pieces of silver which is the equivalent of what a month's wages or something like that or a slave wage you know the cost the price of a slave maybe it's four months wages something like that that that that's the sole reason he did it he just wanted more money and this was the best way to get it >> uh so then that is the my task in doing this show in going all right how am I going to fill in these gaps so I use a combination of uh historical and cultural context the Jews we know believe Jesus would be a soldier king that he would conquer the opp that the Romans that he would overcome that he would overcome >> that the messiah would be this the Messiah would be the Right. Right.

¶176Thank you. >> And so it's it's uh it's plausible that some people believe Judas was a would was previously a zealot. >> Yeah. >> Um I I don't know that. And I >> Yeah, there's a theory.

¶177I think it's got to do with the the name Escariat, which we don't know what Escariat means, but it sounds kind of like >> Well, I think it means of carry out. That's how we That's >> Yeah, because Well, that's one idea, is that there's just like like so many people, it's a place name, but some people I think this is very dubious, but I remember Bartman telling me that there was this this group of people I think called the I think they were called like the Sakari who Yeah. Yeah. Who who are who who are they're kind of zealot or they >> Well, that's how we portray Simon Z in the show. >> Yeah.

¶178He's he's a Sakari, right? >> Yeah. And he was a member of this this um this group this almost cultlike group that was >> um that that believed passionately even more so than everyone else. >> Yeah. Of the overthrow of Rome.

¶179the role overthrow of Rome and that the Messiah um would be the and that if he's not to this if he's not the the overthrower of Rome then he's clearly not the Messiah. And they were just as passionate as Romans were towards um false messiahs who would get the people aroused because they were like we we we false messiahs are are blasphemers and evil and and they were just as passionate as the Romans were and so were some of the religious leaders. All that to say, >> well, so some people think that Judas, there was this idea that Judas was at least from a line of people involved there because they think there might be some like ethmological link between Escariat and Sakari. >> There are all kinds of theories, but we don't we don't know which >> we do know that with very few exceptions, I imagine the overwhelming majority of Jewish people at that time, >> yeah, >> believe Jesus that the Messiah would be a conquering king. And I believe the apostles believed that all the way up until yeah >> his resurrection if not his even his ascension.

¶180Even before his ascension they're saying are you going to yeah >> are you going to now are you going to restore the lost kingdom or now are you going to overcome the oppressors? Right. Um so they they probably until until the Holy Spirit you know came and and and >> uh you know launched their ministry they believed at any point the Messiah was going to overcome the oppressors. So when I when I take that knowledge and I take um the fact that that Judas betrayed Jesus for so little money considering the stakes involved um and that he felt so guilty. I'm not sure I I I you you mentioned he Matthew has him as repenting before.

¶181I don't I I confess I don't remember if that's if if that's a literal I I don't remember exactly how he portrays what Judas said before his death. So um so some of the scholars who are wishing I would have corrected you or not. But I don't I just don't remember. That said, did he repent before whatever. All we do know is he felt supremely guilty.

¶182The moment that Jesus was sentenced to death, Judas felt guilty. And so because of that, >> I am able to decipher uh plausibly at least that Judas was trying to force the issue. And that's how we portray. We portray Judas as trying to like he's making a bet. He's like, "If I can if I can fasttrack this, Jesus will um if I betray him and he's the Messiah, he will get through it anyway." >> Yeah.

¶183>> He'll overcome. This won't work. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And that way we'll all be I'm I'm taking one for the team.

¶184>> I'm pro I'm I'm making this decision to prove that he's the Messiah. If he's not and he fails and he gets arrested and uh killed, then then I'm doing everyone a favor as well because I'm proving that he's another false messiah. >> Um so um I don't think I deny the fact that Judas makes very bad decisions, that Judas is motivated by things such as selfishness and and and greed has something to do with it, that there's demonic influence, all of that. I don't dismiss that. Um, I just think that the notion that he just was purely bad and just decided to do this and that Satan just entered him and that was it, I I just don't find plausible.

¶185Um, even if I believed it was good storytelling, I don't believe that. >> And it also just wouldn't be good storytelling. >> And it wouldn't be good story >> if if it would be like, you know, I don't know if if I don't know, like Princess Leia is just sort of, you know, before Darth Cidius and he's just like, I tell you what, I'll I'll um I'll give you some money and you just give me Luke. And she's like, yeah, sure. Why not?

¶186You know, it it just doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense psychologically from a storytelling perspective and I don't believe it makes sense from a human >> uh from a what was the word you just used psychological >> Yeah. Like a psychological perspective. >> Yeah. So that you're you're this is an example of of of a lot of what I do which is sometimes I go >> I don't have historical facts available.

¶187I don't have cultural facts available. A lot of times I do which makes some of the portrayals very very plausible. Mhm. >> Um, but sometimes it is human understanding, psychological understanding. I'm I'm a student of the brain.

¶188I'm a student of of of psychology, of philosophy, of human reason, of human logic, of behavior, um, of of I've studied a lot of psychosis and um, uh, you know, sociopaths and whatnot. And I've studied that a lot. And so, um, that allows me, I think, some some wisdom in going, >> "Yeah, >> Judas, our portrayal of Judas, I think is not only good storytelling, but but actually plausibly, um, plausibly historically accurate." >> There's a moment when Jesus is talking with Judas, uh, while they're staying at that that house. They're in this sort of beautiful courtyard garden, and Jesus says to Judas, "You have a choice to make." >> Yeah. you know, where where is your heart?

¶189Like, I want your heart. >> Yeah, >> I've had it before. And I can't remember exactly what Judas says uh in response, but whatever it is he says, Jesus then says, "Then I'll pray for you." >> Right. >> And some people took this to be an indication that Jesus is kind of wanting Judas to not betray him. >> Yeah.

¶190>> And that he's praying that that Judas will not betray him. Even though not only does Jesus know that he's going to betray him, but also knows that this is integral to the mission, to his father's plan. So if that's the case, why would Jesus be having this conversation? Why would he say you've got a choice to make when the choice is essentially already set in stone? And why would he say that he'd pray for him if not only would he not want to change his father's plan, >> Yeah.

¶191>> but also that plan is already set in place. So the choice to make um is that that idea is again it gets into free will versus uh predestination and all of that which is a a whole another discussion but >> it does speak to there are moments when when uh Jesus talks about choices in the gospels there's moments throughout the bible of you know choose who choose now who you will serve a a servant cannot a slave cannot serve two masters so there's there's I believe that there's there's plenty of examples of the notion of making a choice that I think it's it's it's plausible that Jesus could tell someone to make a choice. The I'll pray for you and does that mean that Jesus could have been rooting for Jesus Judas to change his mind or not go through with it? That's a much bigger I think theological problem to that I believe is raised. But here's what I believe reconciles it.

¶192In the garden of Gethsemane, >> Jesus is asking his father. >> Yes. >> To take this cup from me. Is there another way? And then he says, >> "But not your will, but [laughter] >> you and I both have multiple clips that if they were pulled from this from this conversation, >> we'll make a super cut." Yeah.

¶193>> Yeah. Exactly. Could could say, "See, I knew Dallas is >> demonic Jesus saying, "My will, mine." >> He says, "Not my will, but yours." Yes. which by definition means that Jesus at least at times had a will yeah >> that was different from his fathers >> that is not sin the sin would be the imperfection would be to say I disagree with you >> I wish there's another way and therefore I am going to choose that other way >> so he says not my will but yours and then willingly gives himself up to the authorities >> so that that is what I drew from to >> justify Jesus saying a ch make a choice because Jesus was in the garden at least seemingly making you know making a choice to serve his father's will >> and then I'll pray for you you know again some were saying pray for you could have meant multiple things he could have been I mean he prays for for people all the time even it could have been praying for Judas's and you know there's any number of things he could have been praying for that's up for the viewer to decide. But but let's say worst case scenario according to the critics that that Jesus is praying for Judas to change his mind.

¶194Even that I think is theologically debatable not heresy >> that that Jesus could have been >> saying he did >> sort of wanted that. >> I'm not even saying in the scene that that's what the prayer was going to be. But it's it's I don't believe it's heresy that Jesus could have prayed for things to go differently than they did. >> Yeah. I mean clearly I mean it would seem more heretical that there is just this this man who is just condemned >> to do this thing that he that he has to do to fulfill God's plan that God like designs and yet is irredeemably evil and God doesn't even like want him to be saved that the Christian message is that God wants everyone to be saved and that has to include Judas even if he has the fornowledge that Judas will betray him you know so yeah it's complicated how does how does your Judas actor feel about his character?

¶195What's his relationship like to >> Yeah. And I and I always try to let him speak for himself, but he's said this to me privately and he said this publicly. I mean, it's very cool in in many ways. Luke Dimenion, who plays Judas brilliantly. Um, >> yeah.

¶196>> When we cast him, um, it was my wife who was really feeling um, God's voice and and impression on her heart that this was the guy. he was auditioning for other roles >> and she just said, "I I see I think he could he's Judas. I think this is our Judas." >> And and and I eventually agreed. And when we cast him, he's like, "I have been obsessed with or intrigued by Judas since I was a kid." He grew up um Coptic Egyptian. >> Yeah.

¶197>> And his his I think his uncle or his I think it's an uncle who's like a a significant figure in the Coptic Egyptian church. and he always had this I don't buy the Judas narrative that he was just this bad guy. He's always been he's he's always considered him the underdog. He's always considered him misjudged. So for Luke, um, he actually I've probably had the most amount of debates, challenging conversations with Luke >> to your question earlier about actors saying, "My character wouldn't say this >> with him than probably any other >> actor and character in the show because Luke is so passionately defensive of Judas >> and um is willing to acknowledge him as the villain, is willing to acknowledge him as someone who made a horrible decision.

¶198is willing to say, "Yes, he's the antagonist. He's the villain. He makes the the fatal flaw." So, he's not defensive of that, but he he he loves Judas deeply. Yeah. Takes it very seriously >> and uh and has ultimately been supportive of of our betrayal and and has outright said to me, I I I trust you and I I serve the vision.

¶199But it was not easy because he cares so deeply for Judas >> uh in a in an extraordinary way. And it was it was the the the whole the role meets the actor uh perfectly was was absolutely true in this case. There's another there's there's something kind of hanging over this like if we're talking about characters for whom you need to invent dialogue and backstories and context. Uh there's one sort of group of characters I think that this applies perhaps more to than than any other. and we we referenced them briefly earlier and that's the women.

¶200>> Yeah. >> It there is a conspicuous absence of women in the gospels um like narratively I mean >> and there's this really sort of extraordinary thing where I was thinking about this >> or absence of of much backstory agency like what they're doing we see them frequently but it's very brief usually they're mentioned and then moved on. So like Mark's gospel for example, you know, doesn't mention these women until right at the crucifixion, right? It's like >> he just he just says, "Oh, and and at the foot of the cross uh was, you know, Mary and and these women who who were also funding Jesus's ministry." >> Yeah. Yeah.

¶201Yeah. >> So this hugely important role. These women were literally bankrolling Jesus' operation >> and they just didn't get a mention. And I thought as a TV show creator, you've got to think in ways that other people aren't thinking, which is that you might not notice that reading Mark's gospel. you're not thinking about the women.

¶202You you know characters like Mary Magdalene from from culture and it you sort of forget that they they haven't been in there. Don't find it weird. But as a TV show host, you know, if if Jesus is talking to Simon Peter, TV show creator, if Jesus is talking to Simon Peter, you've got to be thinking, well, what's what's Andrew doing like while they're having that conversation? Where's everyone sat? Who's in the room?

¶203Where are the women? where, you know, and so I can sort of see you trying to trying to find out what to do with the women and reading through Mark's gospel and just being like, you know, but you've made this decision to to take these women and invent some some female characters and put them front and center in the narrative. Um, is it is it because of woke Dallas? Is it because, you know, modern media, you know, they're trying to sort of send a message down, you know, surely the reason why you're choosing to to invent female characters and give them such a central role that they don't have in the Gospels >> to make up for the the the uh the chauvinistic or >> Yeah. history of cinema.

¶204It's got to be a woke thing, right? >> Or Yeah. Or even in the Gospels just, you know, which was a very patriarchal time, of course. And and uh so I'm I'm kind of maybe correcting the the errors of the Gospels. um or the gospel writers.

¶205So, first of all, no, I I have no agenda with it um because of the following. I actually don't believe that the gospels uh dis discclude women. Maybe there's not as much time spent on them, but uh they are mentioned in some of the most important moments in the entire gospels. >> Now, the purpose of the gospels for the most part, I believe, is uh to give Jesus's greatest hits to show that he was the Messiah. Mhm.

¶206>> And so the the they do show women being healed. They do show women interact. They mention that Jesus was his ministry was financed by the women. Um but because the women weren't one of the 12 followers, the the the narrative is going to be far more male uh male dominant. >> Yeah.

¶207>> But they do get key mentions that are massive. So I don't believe I'm actually inventing a the a more significant role of the women when Mary Magdalene is the first one Jesus appears to after his resurrection >> and he gives her instructions to go talk to the apostles and and uh when when she's mentioned as someone who had been healed by him of of of demons >> um when they are mentioned as funding his ministry when the first person he announces himself publicly as the Messiah to is a woman at the well and there's a whole fascinating series of verses of their exchange and the the the honor he gives her and the agency and beauty of her experience that he that he um entrusts to her, the the the knowledge of her heart and and and backstory that he has >> um because he's God, the care that he shows her that isn't shown by others, the trust that he gives her in and knowing that she's going to go spread the word when he previously had been telling people don't tell anybody. Yeah. With her, he gives her the freedom. She goes and tells everybody.

¶208those I believe are absolutely empowering uh uh Jesus empowering women, honoring women significantly. So uh I don't believe that my the time that I while I would acknowledge the time I give the women in my show is more time than the gospels give I believe that's true of all my all all of the characters. But um I don't believe it's a contradiction Yeah. >> to how Jesus saw women. Yeah.

¶209>> And so it's not a it's not a correction of anything. It's an it's a spotlight on and um enhancement of of time spent on what I believe >> Jesus how how about how I believe Jesus treated and thought of women. >> Well, we know that um given that Mark just tells us that there were these women who had been following Jesus and just hadn't mentioned them. We know that there was stuff going on that wasn't explicitly sort of recorded in in the Gospels, right? There's a I've I've had on my show this this wonderful scholar called Helen Bond at Edinburgh who wrote a book called Women Remembered about the I've >> never read it but I've heard of >> it's it's it's brilliant.

¶210Um and it's it's about the sort of the position of women in the Gospels and why the gospels are so quiet on them. There are some sort of very odd mysteries like the fact that as you say in the gospels it's the women who discover the empty tomb and it's some of the most important first moments of Jesus's resurrection. And yet in 1 Corinthians 15 when Paul earlier, like one of our earliest sources of the New Testament is listing off all of the people that Jesus has appeared to and he's talking about, you know, how he appeared to to see first and he appeared to the 12 and he appear and last of all he appeared to me. He appeared to 500 people at one time as above 500 people at one time. And he just like doesn't mention the appearance to to Mary.

¶211>> Yeah. >> Which is like really strange. And some people have thought maybe that was a sexism thing. Maybe that's because in the gospels it was unavoidable because it was known that the women discovered the tomb. But when Paul is preaching he's like, "Oh, let's let's not mention that it was women who discovered the tomb." >> And there's multiple theories.

¶212And I I would say the one of the most likely to to me at least and again I would I would defer to my to to Rabbi Jason soel our MC Jewish rabbi consultant on this but to me the most likely is that women weren't a woman's testimony was not actually considered valid >> exactly >> in in most cases and so um the gospel writers were like you know who cares about that we're going to we we we are going to use them as as a source material but perhaps Paul's audience or perhaps who who you know Paul was recognizing that mentioning them might not make much of a difference in the point that he's trying to make. Now when he says he appeared to 500 I can only assume that he's including women in that but there there's multiple reasons why he might not have but yeah I I I think that the fact that the gospels mention it the fact that it's it's uh mentioned it clearly and decisively and that they that she was at that the women were at the cross and that the men other than John weren't I think is yeah is not known. >> You know it hadn't crossed my mind before. I mean, the 500 thing is really interesting because Paul mentions it once. We don't hear about it ever again.

¶213We don't know who these people were. We don't know why they were gathered. We don't know anything about them. Um, some people have suggested that maybe when Jesus appeared to the 12 disciples, it wasn't just the 12 that like loads of people ended up showing up and it was the same appearance. Some people have suggested it was a kind of vision.

¶214And it's just struck me, you know, don't tell me, you wouldn't tell me even if you knew the answer to this. But of course, your your show follows the story of the Gospels. It's not going to be super sensitive to the the narrative events of what happens afterwards. Um, but Paul writing the schema, it sort of makes me wonder if there's any temptation to depict the the 500 cuz the obvious stuff that you the post-resurrection appearances, you know, you got to you got to choose. Are you going to depict them all?

¶215You know, in in uh Matthew's gospel, Jesus appears to them in Galilee. In Luke, it's moved to Jerusalem for some reason. And again, you've got this thing of do you depict it twice? Do you just choose one and run with it? And then you've got this sort of weird reference from Paul, which given how little we know about it, it's like maybe maybe we should do that, maybe we shouldn't.

¶216It must be a hell of a position to be in. >> Yeah, we do interesting uh choice of words. Um [laughter] >> we um like what I talked about earlier with the theology of healing, I also where I where I draw from some postgosspel uh sources. Uh, I think the same can be true historically. Uh, I I I I would say my show, yes, is is covering the gospels, but but I would I absolutely would would draw from if when when Paul says there were 500 that he appeared to, I would consider that perhaps not part of the four gospels, but certainly go >> part of the story, right?

¶217Yeah. >> Right. So, um, but one of the things that we don't do in the show that I think is is one of probably the most significant historical omissions in our show is that Jesus undoubtedly had 72 followers who were who were with him >> probably most of the time. The 12 were the leaders. They were the core.

¶218They were the apostles versus just the followers and disciples. But um he clearly had many more disciples, meaning followers whom he taught regularly that we don't include because >> it's a TV show. I can't I you know I can't include I have a hard enough time keeping track of the 12 that we've got and giving them enough lines of dialogue and all that. So >> uh so do the gospels. Some some suggest that they they sort of having a different name, different list of names for the different disciples.

¶219Maybe the gospel authors themselves struggle to to keep track. Who knows? Depend depends on depends on your view. Follow me versus Nathaniel. >> But you know, there are things that you do exclude.

¶220You don't show. I mean, two things that we spoke about yesterday that jump out. >> The temptation in the desert >> by Satan. A huge moment at the beginning of of of Matthew and Luke. Um really important sort of message and lots of theological sort of weight there.

¶221>> Not in the chosen. >> Yeah. >> The transfiguration. >> Yeah. >> One of the most sort of theologically charged >> Yeah.

¶222>> moments of of of the synoptic gospels. Jesus sort of appear and and you can imagine visually Jesus on this mountain with with with Elijah and Moses and it's this it's this I mean people talk about how you know look Elijah and Moses are the only Old Testament prophets to go up a mountain to to commune with God and it's this and there's Jesus talking with who is it but Elijah and Moses and >> and you don't depict it. >> Yeah. >> Why not? Uh there are some things where I've I've just said I either a don't know how to and uh haven't been able to to to to make sense of it within this, you know, the the the context of the show.

¶223That doesn't mean I'm saying it didn't happen. I'm just saying, you know, you're going to get um more out of it from the Gospels than you are from the show and even from me illuminating it in the show. Um, I will say that some of the things that I don't haven't shown yet, um, are because I haven't shown them yet. Um, some things I I've said, uh, publicly I I that that the transfiguration is not going to be in this in in The Chosen. But I also said uh uh at Chosen Con a couple years ago, a gathering of all our not all, a small portion, but thousands of of of fans that I would do it in in my Moses show >> that uh when I I do plan on doing a show, a threeseason show about the the story of Moses.

¶224>> And that I thought that feels to me more narratively um I don't know if compelling is the right word, but but it's a really wonderful conclusion to the Moses arc. He wasn't allowed to see the promised land. >> Yeah. >> But but ultimately he actually did because he was there on this mount in Jerusalem with with with Christ. >> So um but within the context of of the of the current show, but the chosen, I just am like I I don't know how to do it.

¶225Jesus glowing and all this I'm always a little bit more nervous with the supernatural stuff. Yeah. >> Uh we start to introduce more of that in season six and seven. I it's it's it's >> very scary to me. the walking on water scene as I mentioned to you off uh before we were talking today.

¶226I was like I didn't want to do that. I said I wouldn't do it. I ended up changing my mind but because the supernatural stuff it's like you don't want people watching it the whole time thinking about how we did it. Yeah. >> We just want them to get lost in the story.

¶227So um but I don't deny the theological significance of the transfiguration or of the temptation in the wilderness. But I do believe we can capture some of that theological theological significance in other parts of the show. And also, I would just definitively say the show is not meant to be a definitive theological treatise on Jesus. Sometimes there are scenes where I go, um, you know what, go to church, study the Bible. That's where you need to engage with this story.

¶228The show is not the best place for it. >> It's exciting that there will be other shows, sequels, you know, that the story doesn't end with >> the end of the Gospels. I mean, it's so tempting. There's so much more >> to tell. I mean, there's there are there are obvious choices.

¶229There's the Acts of the Apostles, which happens right at the end, >> which I do want to do. >> Continues. That'd be great. Jesus's trip to America, of course. >> Oh, [laughter] goodness sake.

¶230Oh gosh, I've had enough issues with my LDS friend. Yeah. Stick to the uh agnostic atheist thing. Don't give [laughter] to venture into the Mormon thing. Um I I want to ask you though, yeah.

¶231Um, and I've wanted to ask you this since since I you reached out to to talk to me, which I appreciate, is I watched a clip of you with Jordan Peterson where you are trying to get him to just answer a fairly simple question. I love Jordan Peterson. I actually I know him. I've I've been on his show. >> Um, but even I sometimes go answer the question.

¶232It's it's not as challenging as as your brilliant mind is making it where you're saying, "Do you believe this happened?" >> Right? >> Do you believe this actually happened? You know, because Jordan tends to to to speak in terms of, well, it happened. I'm not going to speak for him. He says it much better.

¶233>> He says, if you ask him if the Exodus story happened, he says, "It's still happening." And it's like, >> "Okay, man." Um, >> you know what I mean, though, don't you? You know, and here's another direct quote from from Jordan Peterson. Um, this is Verbaton. Uh, there are a few questions embedded in that question. >> What do you mean do?

¶234What do you mean you? What do you mean believe? And what do you mean God? And it's like, look, fair enough. I'm a I'm a big stickler for defining our terms and making sure that that we all understand each other, but it does get to a point of >> extreme tedium.

¶235Um, which is why when I spoke to him, I went in with a mission to get a clear answer on at least the question of Jesus's resurrection. >> Yes. I think that um one of the things that I I would I don't know his motives, but it seems he's what I know of him, he's so resistant to being trapped into a label or into a box that he's not going to fall he's not going to go on your terms of the question. So there's there's some of that, but but because you are so will eager to get a direct answer, um I I I'm willing to ask you one, which is um I think some people would be surprised that you've watched The Chosen. Mhm.

¶236>> Um or I mean I didn't know that you'd even heard of the show or had watched it and then you told me that you had and that you I think you're at least almost caught up or >> Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I remember watching the the first season during COVID lockdown and then I saw all kinds of clips on YouTube and I'm just I'm like a Jesus nut.

¶237So I I thought it was awesome to see these and particularly season five has just been just been awesome. I think it's been been really really cool to see. I love I love the show. >> Thank you. Um, but I'm curious and I know that even a lot of chosen viewers are curious what curious when someone like yourself who I don't know all of your range of belief what you believe of God, but um is at the at the very least skeptical or or or questioning or or like as you said, I'm not sure and I don't believe that half of the things that Jesus is attributed to necessarily happened.

¶238um when you watch the show and you see the portrayal of these events as though they happened because that is my of course operating philosophy. I happen to believe that these things all happened at least that the gospel things that I include from the gospels. >> Um but there's things in the show that probably didn't happen. And you mentioned when you were talking to Jordan, you said you were trying to get him to answer and you said in Forest Gump, we know that Forest Gump is a fictional character, but he meets JFK. M >> we know that that meeting didn't take place because there's no such thing as Forest Gump, but we do know JFK was the president.

¶239>> Yeah. >> Right. So in the show when you're watching the show, >> you believe Jesus was the uh lived in Nazareth, then you know like you believe in the historical Jesus. Absolutely. But when you see um and when you see him encounter Rayma or Adakus or >> some of these in invented characters by me and my coowriters or my father would correct me, my coowriters and I or my co-writers and me.

¶240>> Um we we are saying I I'm I'm outright saying in in my conversation with you and publicly, I don't believe Attekus actually existed. He's he's a storytelling device. when you're watching scenes that I know didn't exist and you know didn't exist, but then there's scenes that I believe did exist, how do you as a how do you see them? Do you because we've seen people all over the world who come to belief because of the show >> and it then makes them read the Bible and and and make you know, but for you who as far as I know have not converted to Christianity, when you see scenes like that uh and you read moments in the Gospels and stuff like that, how do you take it? Why do why do you watch why have you watched all five seasons?

¶241Why do you like I think it's great television. I think it's extremely moving. I'm sure people tell you that all the time. It's just such a moving story and the way it's depicted is incredibly moving. Um I think the same thing which that I think when I read the gospels in many ways, which is I mean you said that lots of people watch the show and and come to come to Christ.

¶242I would imagine that in the probably in in a lot of those cases at least it's people who haven't encountered the gospel story before. not like really heard the whole the whole thing like with all the details. >> Some of that is so most of it is they'd heard it but it didn't quite they didn't quite make sense of it or >> Yeah. Right. They heard it from a sermon and and personal experiences that that kind of impeded their vision.

¶243Of course, you know, those of us who believe the Holy Spirit can it works through certain things to to give them that that truth and that vision and enlightenment enlightenment. Yeah. But but yeah, so continues. I sort of I I feel as though as someone who is so interested in the New Testament, I spent so much time with the material that for me it's really cool to see it depicted, but I'm not sure how much it would do to like um it's not going to strike me as sort of like, wow, look at this character that I'm encountering that I've not encountered before. This is this is so strange and magical and cool.

¶244because I have encountered this character in in the gospel stories, but there is something about bringing it to life >> which especially not having to worry about the sort of potential theological heresies and stuff and just being like this is really cool. I think it's like the it's probably the 20th greatest piece of Jesus media ever produced. [laughter] That's >> I think after the 27 books of the New Testament minus Revelation and the six disputed Paul line apostle uh epistles. I think I think it's probably about there. I'm not entirely sure.

¶245I mean there are some paintings that probably give it a run for its money. The uh >> Christ before the the high priest in the National Gallery in London. >> Sure. uh is is this incredible something about the facial expression of Jesus in that painting is it it just it's almost like you take something as brilliant as the chosen and you just collapse it into that one sort of 5cm square something in there you know but in terms of >> like a a bit of art a piece of art I think it's just wonderful man I think it's really really cool and I think what you've created >> I mean we're sat on the set right now we haven't even addressed uh the fact that that we're in >> this is the Sanhedrin scene yeah >> we're in the Sanhedrin sort of I don't know what you We've got there was a word for it, the name for the broom. I've forgotten it, but like the the sort of meeting place.

¶246And it is incredible as someone who is interested in the story and fascinated by the New Testament to see it brought to life in this way. I feel like I'm in Disneyland right now, you know? It's like it's absolutely incredible. Um, and it humanizes Jesus in a way that's really important. It's very difficult for me to imagine Jesus having conversations with people.

¶247It's kind of in the same way that when I imagine George Washington, I imagine like a painting, an oil painting. I I cannot imagine the Declaration of Independence being signed as like an event in a room. It's literally a painting in my head. And I sort of had a similar view of Jesus. He's this sort of old cracked kind of um 11th century, you know, goldplated >> different emotionally distant pious >> figure of of of uh of leadership.

¶248Yeah. >> But but not a first century Jewish man. >> And I think The Chosen sort of breaks that open. Um and I think it's brilliant for doing so. But, you know, I'm also aware that I'm watching a TV show.

¶249I'm a Jesus nut. Basically every single scene that I'm I'm watching, I'm finding it very difficult not to be like, "Oh, interesting." Oh, okay. So, so when so when Jesus is sat with John and and and they he sort of says that I I love you and I'm like, "Ah, so so John is the beloved disciple." That's kind of where my brain is going, right? So I feel like maybe to my fault that would prevent me from having any serious um like emotional connection like all the way through cuz I'm sort of jumping out of those moments. But there are some moments where I I'm deeply emotionally invested.

¶250I mean, >> I'm curious to do are you ever I mean, you don't strike me as an an overly emotional person. Um, but but are there times when you're when you you feel your heart moved? >> The the woman at the well. >> Yeah. >> Is as I'm sure I'm sure I I don't know if if that's something you you get a lot in terms of how how moving it all is.

¶251Um, but that scene something about that scene is just is just so is so beautiful. Um, and I don't think it has to be to do with the fact that, you know, you think this really happened and that Jesus is really there and the salvation of people, but I think something about just seeing a a woman at the end of her desperation, right, >> be given this lifeline um, is just >> And so, do you really believe that that happened or would you say >> because you you you do believe in the historical Jesus? Oh, sure. >> So, how many of the stories I'll rephrase? >> Yeah.

¶252Well, >> are there is that are there stories where you do you ever face a story and you go that one I really do believe in? >> Yes, absolutely. So, when it comes to so stuff like that, I have no idea if Jesus reveals his messiahship to a woman at a well or if that's just a narrative device by, you know, the evangelist who who writes the fourth gospel. Um, my general sort of approach to this is that there are certain criteria I can use to judge how historical a story is. If it doesn't fulfill these criteria, it doesn't mean it didn't happen, >> right?

¶253>> It just means I'm less confident. And those criteria are firstly, is it multiply attested? >> Sure. >> So, is it in multiple gospels? Particularly if it spans both John's gospel and the synoptics.

¶254>> Yeah. Um, and particularly if the synoptic gospels tell two different stories that seem to be drawing on a on two different traditions or if they're telling like the same story, like if if Matthew and Luke tell something that isn't in Mark, like they're drawing on a tradition that's unique to them. You can like pull out all of these different sources of the gospels. There's the sources for Matthew and Luke. There's Mark.

¶255There's Mark's sources. There's the sources for John. There's potentially, you know, this this Q document. Um, and if it appears in multiple of those, especially in different varying forms, I'm pretty sure it happened. Another thing would be things that the authors would be unlikely to make up.

¶256So, for example, Jesus's baptism by John. Um, seems like a a ridiculous thing to invent if you're trying to tell the story of Jesus as the the son of God. It seems like a a potentially uncomfortable historical fact that John's gospel seems to distance >> Yeah. >> uh us from by insisting that John is not the Messiah. He really wants us to know that John the Baptist is not the Messiah, implying that there were people who thought he was the Messiah.

¶257I've done episodes on this. So, I think the baptism probably happened. Um, some scholars point to >> when Jesus says to his 12 disciples, "You will be sat on the 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel." A lot of scholars think he must have said this because if an author was making this up, he wouldn't have written 12. >> Yeah. >> Because Judas was there, >> right?

¶258>> So, if if somebody was making this up after the fact, they they wouldn't have made up this story. So Jesus probably said that. So all of these kinds of clues. So when I'm watching a depiction of something which I'm almost certain was historical, that's when I'm like it feels more like I'm I can really place myself in the zone. I can really be like, "Wow, this must have been what it was like to see Jesus." Even just seeing him preach, you know?

¶259Maybe he wasn't seeing those words or had that message, but just the >> the ruckus, the people following him around, the upsetting of the Jewish and ultimately Roman authorities. Yeah. The crucifixion, I'm sure, will will be the same. just to just to see that this is an event that happened. It'll be amazing to watch.

¶260But the particular conversations I I find it I find it very easy to be moved by them. I find it very easy to to to enjoy and and imagining what it might have been like in that world, but it suddenly feels um less like I'm watching a biopic of John Adams and more like I could be watching Star Wars or something. Although it's it's it's you know it's more interesting than Star Wars, >> which is what's interesting is that I actually don't want viewers to watch the stuff that's not from the Gospels as though they were gospel. Yeah. Right.

¶261So I I'm I'm happy. >> Oh, but I'm not I'm not just talking about the stuff that's that's not from the Gospels. I mean the stuff that's not like multiply attested. >> I see. So you're saying even the things that are in the Gospels that are multi you're like this this could be >> that I'm like a bit dubious of.

¶262Yeah. >> It's not that it's didn't happen. It's that it's it's you're you're much more Yeah, I >> wouldn't be surprised if it did. Wouldn't Wouldn't be surprised if it didn't, >> I think. So, yeah.

¶263Um I mean, there are certain things which I think probably didn't happen or unlikely to have happened. Yeah. Like there are moments in John's gospel where Jesus makes these profound christoologgical claims in front of all of his disciples >> that would be really strange >> for the others not to record. Like when Jesus says before Abraham was, I am. These are the famous examples.

¶264And there's a lot to be said on this, believe me. But when he says, "I and the father are one." these high christoologgical claims apparently. >> Um it'd be really weird if he said these in the in the full hearing of his disciples >> and those guys thought well you know you know when he like claimed to be God that's not that important let's not include that in in our narrative. So some people are a little bit sort of but then some people think that maybe there's a reason they didn't include it. So we just kind of don't know.

¶265>> Yeah. Or Yeah. as much as reason they didn't include it or or a reason they focused on other things and you know it's not like they had let's not include this it's just more of a >> the purpose of my book is is not to you know I can only focus on so many things and then John perhaps going >> well there's I'm he's responding to some certain questions and certain no he did say this too and he did say that too um yeah >> because yeah going back to the the the the metaphor of the 97 puzzle pieces for me um where I feel comfortable not only believing some of these things from the gospel all of these things from the gospels but then portraying them is because I go well because there are so many things that I can that I'm so confident in in that are true that I'm going to then by definition believe that okay because I believe that these gospel accounts are accurate and um then then and because I you know now we're getting into creation and evolution all this stuff there's so many things that I believe that I would die for that. The things that I am not sure of to me feel like maybe the the three three pieces of the puzzle that I don't have assurance of but that must be true because the 97 other puzzle pieces are connected and and this would these three pieces would would complete the puzzle as opposed to looking at it from a >> because these three puzzle pieces are missing then therefore >> the whole puzzle is to be dismissed. Right.

¶266>> Yeah. I think I think that's that's fine and that's fair enough. Um >> to to me honestly the the of course the most difficult things to to really wrap your head around are the most supernatural elements. I love seeing just the sort of humanity of Jesus. I love watching him just >> walk around having conversations.

¶267um just just seeing the crowds and stuff. But to me, you'll have to ask me again in in in a year or two because the way that you end up depicting the resurrection. >> Mhm. >> Um the the way that that is is shown multiply attested. >> Yeah.

¶268>> So [laughter] So on these things that are multiply attested. >> Yes. Supernatural. >> It depends which which uh which appearance. Um, you know, if it's in if you show an appearance to the 11 in in Galilee, then it's attested by by Matthew.

¶269If you I mean, Mark doesn't attest to any, you know, and but he does but Mark does have Jesus say have have the angel say that he will be in Galilee. So, I I suppose the the Galilean appearance is is more plausible than the Jerusalem appearance. You know, that'll be running through my mind, right? But to me, it's right now when I when I picture that I literally I'm trying to picture the the appearance of Jesus uh to to the to the 11 disciples and I'm imagining a painting again just like the George Washington thing. And I have no doubt that in a couple of years after The Chosen, >> I might be able to picture it as like a real like event in the world.

¶270>> That's got to be a big weight on how you're going to how you're going to present that. Um, but I have no idea how that will affect my view of the plausibility of the resurrection. >> What about the other the the the the other miracles in the show that were multiply attested? Do you believe that miracles that Jesus did miracles? >> I think I've seen seen some of your conversations about this before.

¶271>> So, I'm an agnostic and broadly speaking that kind of means that I that I don't believe it. Not to say I believe they didn't happen, but I I just I don't believe it. I don't think there's good evidence for it exactly >> because if you did then the obvious basically a Christian then you're then you believe that God created the world and and so it's yeah there's there is a there is a tipping point >> but the the thing that's mysterious is that scholars think that there are certain things about Jesus which are undisputed. >> It's not it's not undisputed that Jesus was healing people of course but it is undisputed that he was known as a healer. >> Sure.

¶272Like it is absolutely clear that one of the one of the most sort of historically certain facts about Jesus was that people knew him as a healer. So he was doing something that gave people that impression. Maybe he was some kind of trickster. Maybe he was some kind of fraud. Maybe he was like a a sort of I don't know he was sort of stretching people's arms and doing like sports therapy and it all got a bit out of hand which happens today.

¶273There are fraudsters and tricksters. who do miracles that people believe are healings >> and and I as a believer in Jesus and a believer in healings don't believe and think were are false. >> And to be clear, that's not my I I don't think there's a [clears throat] guy who's who's trying to fool people here. But yeah, you're quite right. Um I think it's possible that he was healing people in some kind of way like like I say, like doing like sports therapy and like wow, you really fixed my elbow and give it a few hundred years and that turns into like my arm grew back, you know.

¶274Um that's that's that's all possible. I don't know. But what I do know is that he was doing something because of the reputation that he had. And the fact that he had such a strong reputation as an exorcist is extremely strange. You know that in in the synoptic gospels, Jesus is one of the things he does most commonly is exercise demons.

¶275And given that we don't really typically believe in demonic possession a lot in the modern world anyway, that makes it even even more difficult to explain. >> But the fact is he had a reputation for it. So th those facts are really interesting. Um although John's gospel sort of doesn't have the exorcisms anymore. Yeah.

¶276And it's it's another sort of weird fact. And to me that's what's so interesting. I'm like why were these authors writing these stories? What were their intentions? Why does John not include this sort of well-known sort of reputational fact about Jesus that he was an exorcist?

¶277Maybe, you know, he's he's betraying. There are all kinds of theories on that. I'm not sure. Um but as to whether I believe that they happened, >> the answer is no. But I am far more fascinated than I think most of my sort of atheist friends and colleagues >> by the fact that there is this man with this reputation.

¶278We sort of take for granted that the gospels exist. We're like, "Oh, like, yeah, well, >> maybe the gospel authors made this up or maybe the gospel authors had this." And I'm sort of like, why do these texts exist at all? You know, why on earth does the Gospel of Mark get written? Like, maybe it's to deal with the with the destruction of the temple. Yeah, sure.

¶279I I can get that. But then >> but where does all this stuff about I'm just so fascinated by it. >> And and for me as a storyteller, as a thinker, as a I've always been fascinated by um lawyers and homicide detectives who who are trying to make sense of things. I've always been fascinated by that. never been someone who just automatically accepts it because someone I trust said it or because um I experience something personally.

¶280So therefore I I mean everyone's different and some people have those experiences and that's for me I always go what what's the most plausible or what's the least plausible. I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I think the conspiracy theories about JFK are are are ludicrous. I believe that the conspiracy theories about uh Charlie Kirk are are ludicrous. uh I tend to believe in the most simple explanation.

¶281And so for me, the notion that the gospels were written like the least plausible is it's a it's a it's a church construction in order to control people and make money. And which is some what some people believe is that the gospels were written post, >> you know, like like later or they were harmonized later. they were messed with um to to to have this to to present this narrative so they could control people and and [clears throat] and I find that nonsensical because of so many things that are in the gospels that are difficult to reconcile. In fact, I I would have done a much better job >> than than than they did if they were doing it for Yeah. for the purpose of making it up to try to control people or whatever.

¶282Um, and and so the like you said, I I I love that you that you at least acknowledge that something happened that even even if he was a trickster, he was so immensely amazing at it. >> Yeah. He was a bloody good one. Yeah. >> I mean, just that it's it's no one could it's it's so good.

¶283And because people who didn't believe became believers, but people who came to him for healing and and and then there's no records of them like there's no records of which I guess skeptics would point out, well, why would there be, but of of the contradictions to those accounts. Um, but you would think that if he was that >> um impactful that there would be plenty of people who go, "Well, we need to we need to correct the record here." And >> but then the thing is, I I I know how stories grow. um you know sometimes it's like you know I've got an under an undergraduate degree in philosophy and theology and sometimes I meet people and they're convinced that I've got like a PhD and I'm like no just because I can see how that how that's sort of happened cuz oh I've heard about that guy I think he's got a degree oh and he does this thing and he speaks of yeah he's and it sort of develops right and also like the gospels are written you know at best decades after Jesus's death and there might have still been people kicking around but this idea that there would have been all of these people who could have Like firstly the gospels didn't have that much time to spread. There wasn't like wide literacy. People probably weren't really reading them.

¶284And so the idea that you sort of got the the the sort of the common early Christian who who was healed by Jesus who gets his hands on a copy of Mark's gospel reads it through and goes, "Hold on, that's not what happened." >> Um it sort of fills me with with Paul. So So I am I want to I want to caveat this because Christians like to edit videos of me to make it look like I'm, you know, converting or converted. I want to caveat it by saying I am fascinated by the story. I think it's it's an astonishing fact that we need to explain why this text exists and why this reputation exists. But I'm also convinced that especially when it comes to ancient history, embellishments happen, developments happen.

¶285People make things up not with the intention of deceiving but with the intention of telling a more full story. People misremember things. People don't get the words right, you know. And I do think that kind of thing happens all the time. >> Yes, it does.

¶286and and and particularly Jewish non-believers, you know, like Ben Shapiro or people who are religious Jews and but don't but don't believe in Jesus will will often just say the there were many other messiahs also who claimed to be Messiah. Yeah. And the religious leaders squaltched them and and and uh got rid of them and there were many other tricksters and husters and frauds and the religious leaders, you know, got rid of them. We just don't know about it. And I go, "Well, that's true." And he just says he most would just say Jesus was just another one of those and he was he was put down for good reasons because he was deceiving the people and that's actually how a character like Shuel in our show or some of the other Pharisees or Sadducees that we portray justify their behavior is we're doing a service to the people.

¶287This is a good thing. >> I just always go so so why why did Jesus succeed where all these other false ones didn't? uh because there were many of them and they had some of the same the access to the same tricks and some of the same they could have done it as well and why why did he succeed so significantly and uh and and and the answer being well he was the David Blaine of of of magicians he was just better than everybody >> that's possible you know it's like you know >> hard for me to accept >> something's got to be something's got to be popular like some people have said like you know why is it that there were lots of e-commerce sites you know at the beginning of the internet why is it that Amazon and eBay just became the popular ones >> I don't know they just they just did better but someone had to right like some something had to be and some people see Jesus fulfills that role and I think you know fair enough >> but I think if that is all you've got >> if that's all you've got in the face of this sort of extraordinary I mean one of the most well doumented uh people from antiquity like by a long it doesn't come close >> if if you believe the whole you know if you if you believe in Jesus but or you don't believe in Jesus but you believe in other historical figures that have significantly less >> attesting to then you've got at least some questions to answer and yeah there are questions about well Are the claims made by those lesser sources more believable? Is it like there are more sources but less believable story and they kind of balance? There's lots to be said about that, but at the very least it's a it's a long conversation and it takes longer than just this sort of like, oh yeah, no, that's that that's just a bunch of nonsense.

¶288It might be nonsense. >> Yeah, >> it might be a bunch of nonsense, but it's not just a bunch of nonsense. You know what I mean? And I would say I, you know, I I would die for um, you know, like when I talk about those 97 puzzle pieces, you know, I would die for those 97 puzzle pieces. There's there's other pieces of how old is the earth and and was was this book of the Bible a metaphor versus a a historical document.

¶289Those some of those things I would not die for. Um, you know, I would die for the the truth of Jesus is God because of not only my my analysis of history and the Bible, but also my my own personal encounters with with God. But um, but it is what I what I think makes you unique and your show unique is that you're not all or nothing. You're not I'm on I'm doing this show to prove atheism as the as the way and to disprove Christianity. It's a we're on a spectrum of of probabilities here, and I'm leaning I I I I don't believe this as true, but I I wouldn't rule it out.

¶290And and what that means for me is obviously between you and and God or or you and >> whoever >> whoever [laughter] or whatever or or or not, but you know, that's the >> Yeah, >> that's the question. So, I just was I'm not I wasn't doing this to try to to get into some sort of debate, but just to go >> No, I know. As someone who who's watched the show, all five seasons of the show, and is intrigued by it, I was just curious how how you respond differently. >> I cannot wait to see the rest of it. As I say, to me, the most I mean, the most important part of the the Christian story for for most Christians, I think, is the resurrection.

¶291That's what we're waiting for. >> So, we're about to film and uh we'll be film I don't I don't remember when this is going to air, but uh but when it does, we'll either have already filmed it or >> Yeah, you're about to question for sure. We'll have to have have another conversation after. >> I was going to say once once we've seen that um let's let's talk again. I'm I'm sure like like maybe even the majority of the interesting creative choices you will have to make in the entire show will happen probably from the crucifixion onwards.

¶292So there'll be so much to talk about. Maybe we can address it again then. >> Absolutely. >> For now, Dallas Jenkins, thank you so much for having us on your incredible set. Um I I really appreciate your time and we're going to spend some more of it shortly by having a little walk around and and show me some more of the set.

¶293It's going to be fun. >> Thank you for for bringing me on. Yeah, it's I'm on your show, but on our show's set. >> Yeah, this happens sometimes and and the set is incredible. I've had a little look around already, but we're going to go and do a a sort of walk and talk.

¶294We're going to bring a camera. We're going to look around the set. We're going to show the people at home more of what we're doing here at the Chosen. And uh it's going to be great. But for for this conversation at least, thanks for thanks for your time.

¶295This >> Absolutely. I absolutely loved it. Thank you. >> If you enjoyed that, you can watch Dallas and me talking some more whilst walking around some more of the set of The Chosen by clicking the link that's on your screen. To support the show and get early adree access to episodes, subscribe to my Substack at alexoconor.com.