¶1North America, I'm coming for you. We're doing a small tour, just six shows at some really cool venues. We're going to talk about philosophy, we're going to talk about God, about consciousness. We're going to talk about whatever you want to talk about because there will be an extensive Q&A at every show. The dates are on screen, the ticket link is in the description.
¶2Be there. Jonathan Roumie, who plays Jesus on the show, is a devout Catholic. You're a Protestant. >> Yes. >> I'm told that sometimes on movie sets actors will sort of come up to the director and say, you know, I just I feel like my character just wouldn't say this, you know, or like I feel like I I get your vision, but I I feel like, you know, I know this character really well and I feel like >> Yeah.
¶3>> I imagine that probably happens on this show. Does it ever happen on a theological basis? Does it ever happen such that you that that Jonathan is made somewhat uncomfortable or or is is questioning the the sort of >> Yeah. >> lack of Catholic spin and and how do you how do you deal with that? And how how does he deal with that?
¶4Given that you've got the you've got the final say on this, it's your show, and presumably if it was a big enough problem for him like as a devout Catholic, he'd probably say, you know, I'm I'm not going to do this. >> Yes. So, I would consider it a spectrum. There are moments when Jonathan for sure, and I don't I don't want to speak for him, but I'll just share a couple of, you know, general examples where he's like I'm I'm not sure, but he's not uncomfortable. He's just, you know, or he'll he'll he'll run it past his consultants, you know, just to say, am I cuz cuz yes, if he was going to violate like dramatically contradict the character of Jesus, >> Yeah.
¶5>> I imagine, um, he would have a hard time doing it and might have to say, I can't I I just I just can't do this. I can't. >> Yeah. >> Um, we've we've never gotten to that point. >> Mhm.
¶6>> I will say this, we in season 6, the crucifixion, we had the most of that that we've ever had where he said, "There are things and it wasn't about the theology." This is what's really interesting about it. I had written written my my co-writers and I had written Jesus talking on the cross in multiple ways like somewhat casually. Like he kind of he at one point he sees one of the one of the characters one of the you know the the people in in and and makes kind of a a light-hearted reference. >> Mhm. >> And so it wasn't a theological issue but Jonathan was extremely uncomfortable with the notion that Jesus going through that much suffering um would would would would be able to to say something casual or or light-hearted, right?
¶7And you'd think that's not a theological issue but for him it was because um it's like he's going through so much suffering. He's going through so much suffering for a reason, right? The suffering is actually part of the theology. >> Yeah. >> So to to to to loosen it, to make it this casual is a violation of theology in some ways.
¶8>> Mhm. >> And and in fact our um our our our David Guffey, our Catholic priest um consulted had similar issues. It was it was this is this is not reverent enough and and and we believe accurate enough to capture what we believe is a very very key part if not the key part of his passion, of his crucifixion. Um Protestants I think are a little less um obsessed, passionate. I don't know I I want to use the right word at at with the the Obviously the suffering of Jesus is very important to us but it's it's a big deal in the Catholic Church.
¶9It's a it's a it's it's kind of like part of the part of the theology. And um so Jonathan was said I I this is the first he ever said to me. He goes, "I've never been this uncomfortable." And so then we just spent hours back and forth. Some of it I already knew. Some of it I was already planning on trimming cuz I was like, "Look, I just wanted to see how this felt, but I let's let's let's cut it.
¶10Let's trim it down." And so we finally got to a place where we were both comfortable. Um and he was a little uncomfortable at times, but but went with it and served the vision. Um there were times when I made an adjustment for his sake that I was I would have done it a little bit differently, but I respected his perspective um and I felt like I wasn't by making this change I wasn't going to violate my vision of it. So those are the kinds of things that occasionally happen, but for the most part we were were were in were in lockstep and and and and a lot of his I don't think I should say this or is related to uh just it feels repetitive or it's you know I think I can say it better. It's not like a kind of this betrays my faith yeah.
¶11So and and that so that's that's happened that again that that happened a little bit in season 6. >> Yeah. >> Um uh I wouldn't say we necessarily oh yeah I mean we did disagree. You know we did we and I think I think that's where again it's the even though the lines Jesus was saying weren't in themselves inherently doctrinally problematic for Jonathan. It was the fact that he was saying anything at all in that moment that that that violated his theology and it didn't violate mine, but I thought okay that's fair and that's interesting and let's let's try to find a middle ground.
¶12>> Yeah, that's that's interesting. I mean there's a moment I can't remember where uh where there's sort of reference made to the brothers of Jesus for example. And >> That's a good that's a yeah that's a >> you've got again you kind of have to make a decision here. Did Jesus have biological brothers? >> Right.
¶13>> Um there's just like good biblical reason to think that he did. They refer to him as brothers. There's a different word for cousins, you know, that kind of all that kind of stuff. Um and yet if you asked Jonathan Roumie, if you asked him to act in a scene where his biological brother walked in the room. For those who aren't aware, you know, this is a big no-no for Catholics.
¶14Because Jesus Mary is a perpetual version. She never has natural children. Of course, nobody else can be miraculously born other than Jesus. So, he he has to be, you know, an only child in that in that theology. So, if you asked Jonathan to film a scene where he met his biological brother as Jesus.
¶15>> Yeah, that's fascinating. So, what I would say is this I don't want to speak for Jonathan. I would say that even in the Catholic Church, and this is one of the things I've actually learned that I didn't know before doing the show, but there's even a variety of of of of emphases and beliefs and doctrines within the Catholic Church. I kind of thought we Protestants are the ones who have the >> [laughter] >> 150 different >> Yeah. >> uh denominations, and the Catholics all are, you know, uniform in one one thing.
¶16I've learned that's not the case. Okay, good. I've learned that among the LDS faith, too. I'm like, oh, there's people who disagree with each other. Wow, that's good to know.
¶17>> Mhm. >> Um Jonathan, I I don't know exactly where he stands on some of these issues that they don't necessarily believe are are sink or swim, heaven or hell, heresy, or or dogma. Um not everything that falls in that category. So, I don't know exactly how Jonathan would react to that. You'd have to ask him.
¶18But, I would say that I personally believe that Jesus had half brothers, and I do believe that I believe that that when the Bible talks about his brothers, again, you can say what the Greek definition of it was. I believe that they were his that they were offspring of of Mary. Um it's not important enough to me. Nor was I genuine and this is genuine. I genuine I say this is genuine as though the other >> [laughter] >> thing I was saying wasn't.
¶19Now, I'm going to really be honest with you, Alex. Everything else has been BS. No, but I I I mean this that I I truly when we were first coming up with with how we were going to approach the stories, I actually said to my co-writers, "I'm not really interested in the whole the the brothers of Jesus, the family of Jesus, because that's its own that's a whole season. That's a whole you could be do a whole show on the family life of Jesus. I don't want to hint at it or or or and then not it's almost like if if his brother showed up and and that for like a moment and then they went away, you'd wonder why won't you're showing more.
¶20So, I'm like I'm going to I'm going to treat it almost as the as the Gospels treat it, which is um that we're going to bring them up, we're going to bring the names up and then you can decide if you believe they were cousins or brothers or not. It's not relevant to the show. >> Yeah. >> And I genuinely just didn't It's like I'm I'm just not all that passionate about it and so um for for both theological purposes and storytelling purposes, I just thought it's it's not it's for the purposes of this show it's not an a hallway I want to go down. But, it's a you've got me thinking how he how Jonathan would have reacted to something like that because it's not it's not a line of dialogue that's that's theologically improper, but it's meeting his brothers which then leads you into this other theological problem.
¶21So, I it's I'm not sure. >> Yeah, I mean there would have to come a point where I think uh someone like Jonathan it strikes me that he he be definitely uncomfortable with it, but I think people just wonder like when there are creative differences on set you know, this is enough to to bring productions down >> Yeah. >> in the best of times, let alone when you're dealing with something so sort of personal and so >> Yeah. >> uh religious. I mean it's like it's like a different level.
¶22So, there there are so many avenues to to consider here, which is also why I think a lot of people are so impressed by the show that given the the the carefulness that you have to approach it with, given the the four different sort of sources that you have to try to compile into a different way, given that your cast and crew are made up of people of all kinds of different beliefs >> Yeah. >> the fact that it's it's worked and you've come out with a show that that is is good and that people enjoy and that is and is telling the story, you know, is is is really cool, man. I think it's really really cool. It's It's It's really a I would say it's part of partly a mystery to me as to why the show has resonated so strongly with so many different Christian traditions. >> Yeah.
¶23>> From LDS to Greek Orthodox to Messianic Jewish to Jewish Orthodox Jewish. I mean, it the show is becoming popular in Israel even among people who don't believe in Jesus because they're so impressed by the Jewishness of the show. And And And that I honor and and really lean into the Jewishness of Jesus which often times hasn't been done before. Um Yeah. I There's a part of me that thinks that my Protestantism is a is is a feature.
¶24It ha- It almo- I don't know that a a um someone who has a specific church affiliation who who has to kind of honor his churches his or her churches affiliation or else they might be you know, in heresy. Uh almost gives me a little bit more freedom and and allows me to kind of tell the story in this way that that just for for whatever reason, yes, I've I've seen some Catholics who've been offended by the the casualness with which Jesus talks because they see Jesus more reverently and more pious. Um but I do think there's kind of a my Protestant libertarianism approach has I think been part of the thing that that has allowed it to to appeal. Now, again, the critics say, "Well, yeah, exactly. That's why, you know, it should be more divisive.
¶25The gospel should be more divisive. They are divisive. Jesus was divisive. You're too ecumenical. You're You're trying to appease too many people." I'm not trying to appease too many people.
¶26It just happens to be because I do believe I'm focusing not on the theological differences most of which came 200 years, 300 years, 500 years, 2,000 years later. I'm focusing on I'm just telling the the of Jesus and interestingly enough, the majority of Christian traditions agree on the historicity of it, the culturalness of it. So, that's it's a it's an interesting thought experiment as to why. >> Here in ancient Jerusalem, nutritionally dense food can be difficult to come by. And especially for someone like me who finds it difficult to stay on top of my diet, that is where today's sponsor, Huel, comes to the rescue.
¶27That's h u e l. This is the black edition. It's a bit beat up because I brought it to America. I mean, ancient Jerusalem. And believe it or not, this is a complete meal.
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¶29I drink one of these almost every single day. I take it with me when I travel. It's high protein, low sugar, low cost, and if you go to huel.com/alexoconna, then if you use the code Alex O'Connor at checkout, you'll also, as a new customer, get 15% off. It's complete nutrition while saving your time and your money. If you enjoyed that clip, you can watch the full episode with Dallas Jenkins by clicking the link that's on your screen.
¶30To support the show and get early ad-free access to episodes, subscribe to my Substack at alexoconna.com. Thanks for watching.