¶1Was that really the thing that did it for you? Was was the miracles? Would you say like intellectually that was the thing that like sealed the deal? >> Yeah. I mean I mean I was starting to lean towards theism on independent philosophical grounds because I was losing all my objections to fine-tuning and the psychophysical harmony argument.
¶2I was trying desperately to avoid it for the longest time but I was like ah this actually probably works. And then I was finding all these new and interesting other harmony problems. And so I was starting to actually like lean towards theism on totally independent grounds thinking that like oh man even the evidence in of itself is like really strong. And now I think it's like even way stronger than I'd previously appreciated. Um just like the philosophical >> it's interesting how psychologically that can happen.
¶3>> I know >> like once you start to be open to this thing then you can start to see like how strong the evidence actually is. >> Yeah. Um, so that kind of got me to theism first, or at the very least, maybe I should say more accurately, like leaning towards theism. Um, I think I really only like embraced theism after encountering lures and sort of reading uh Caleb Jackson's kind of forthcoming chapters on Lords and one of his books on medically documented healing miracles and whatnot. Um but yeah, so the philosophical grounds were even enough at the time to make me start like ve taking theism very seriously and start leaning towards theism.
¶4And then um the miraculous grounds were like yeah it was the the the coal to the fire, you know, it was the the engine to the train. It was it was what was really drove it all. Um and that eventually led me to uh to convert on an intellectual level. And then of course various factors had to come in to like shape my heart um to get me in the right place to be able to accept >> maybe maybe we can discuss some objections to the miracles while we're on the topic of we're still on the topic of objections >> to to Catholicism and one of those objections is well maybe in the case of something like Fatima you know I've had Sean Luke on the channel and he argued that Fatima was demonic like uh did those hypotheses ever like did you take those seriously? >> No.
¶5Okay. So the I mean the demonic hypothesis I never really took particularly seriously and it just never really struck me as at all kind of plausible as a kind of appeal. Um now I've since kind of the reasons that I had at the time were like um I don't know uh >> you were more looking for like natural >> explanations. I was looking for naturalistic explanations at the time and I was like how can I how can I avoid having to posit phenomena? Um, and yeah, my plausibility structures were basically such that I I did I did not want to go in for demonic phenomena.
¶6Um, >> but then I don't know, even like >> even once I was probably leaning towards thinking that there were such things as demons, but I wasn't all the way to Catholicism. I didn't I just didn't really take it to be a plausible hypothesis because it just seemed like a ridiculous demonic MMO where it's like you're going to a Catholic country where it's just a bunch of the obviously primary foreseeable effects are just a bunch of lapsed Catholics and secularists and like atheists and liberals are going to become Catholic. It's like it didn't seem like a plausible demonic mo to just go and do that to basically just like revivify the faith of a bunch of lapsed Catholics. It just sounded ridiculous. And then you know you actually like again you look at the phenomena itself um and it's like you know introducing a christocentric prayer like I I have prayed the fatima prayer with my parents from a very young age like oh my Jesus forgive us our sins save us from the fires of hell lead all souls heaven especially those most in need of thy mercy uh and it's like okay you know it didn't seem like a plausible demonic emote to do that and I also just had this intuitive sense that like you know if something is predicted 3 months in advance and it's the most like spectacular miracle since like the resurrection then like okay Like I just had this intuitive sense of like clearly that's beyond demonic power.
¶7Like this is God, you know? I I just seemed kind of ridiculous to posit demons in that case. Yeah. >> And of course like since then I I've learned like the fundamental theology and why like it seems extraordinarily implausible now to posit demons and whatnot. >> So what what what out do Protestants have with uh >> so if I were Protestant >> Catholic miracles?
¶8>> I mean I steal man steel man them as as best you can. Use the use the Joe intellect and >> Well, listen. I would not go in for the demonic phenomena because I think like the you know the Fatima, the Padre Peio, the Lords and whatnot, they pass the actual scriptural tests, right? The Deuteronomy 13:18 test about whether the sign comes to pass and then if they're speaking on behalf of God the creator um they pass the test of like well uh is God giving a manifestation of the superior efficacy of his power in the face of the demons? Well, not if Protestantism is true.
¶9In fact, like the demonic phenomena are just basically creating massive religious confusion and basically just like single-handedly favoring Catholicism. This is another thing. It's like if you look at the broader pattern of miracles, it's like >> dude like the demon they could choose any sect that you disagree with like Lutheran or or uh or you know Anglicans if you disagree with Anglicans or you they could have chosen like the Methodists or the Baptists or they could have chosen Muslims or Jews who don't even believe in Christ or like Buddhists and what not and they could perform all these miracles for them. But no, they're single-handedly going out of their way to manifestly vindicate the Catholic Church. That seems really sus.
¶10That seems really weird. They never pick Methodism. They never pick like Presbyterianism. They never pick Lutheranism or orthodoxy or like other things. Like that seems really weird.
¶11That seems way better predict just under the bare demon hypothesis. You would not predict. They would single-handedly choose Catholicism and then just like perform all these manifest vitications of it. They could have chosen Buddhism to bring bring people away from even God, right? They could have chosen Islam, but no, come on.
¶12Yeah. Um >> so like even just the broader pattern made me think that that's just not not a plausible hypothesis in the slightest. Uh and again since then I've learned the fundamental theology and I'm like oh this is complete like their epistemology is completely different from the New Testament epismology. Um, so, >> so how would you man? >> I would go I I would I think I would go a kind of accommodationist approach.
¶13>> Mhm. >> Where it's like, >> you know, sometimes God will just perform miracles to enliven people's faith in a particular context. And, you know, uh, >> well, from Protestant like certain forms of Protestantism, like they still think that Catholics are saved. >> Yeah, most Protestants think that. Yeah, Catholics are still saved.
¶14So maybe God will just perform some Catholic miracles or something and then like bring them >> one of them. >> Well, yeah. And also which seem to implicate God in being a deceiver cuz like okay is Mary immaculately conceived cuz she said I am the immaculate conception >> to St. Bernardet. So is she immaculately conceived or not?
¶15If not then God is performing a deceptive sign. Or like for Fatima, is the Holy Father actually the Holy Father? Does he actually have jurisdiction over things outside of Rome? Is Mary actually immaculately conceived as she says? Uh, you know, is it actually fitting to convert people to Catholicism to explicitly obtain conversions to Catholicism?
¶16Um and then you know you just go through like with Padre Peio like is there actually such a thing as like redemptive participatory vicarious uh like satisfaction for sin or not? Uh because like it seems like God is if God is actually the one performing these miracles and you disagree with all the doctrines that God seems to be manifestly vindicating here then you're implicating God in deception. God is going out of his way to deceive people. And like you know Padre Pio he's like having these like daily interactions like kind of like mystical experiences with Christ with our blessed mother uh with even like souls in purgatory and various other things. Is God like again if God is the source of this is is God basically just like putting him in the Truman show?
¶17Like he's basically like basically Daycart's evil demon just like feeding him all these false sensory impressions like basically constantly almost every day. >> Yeah. >> So like God's basically putting Padre Peio in a skeptical scenario like okay. Um, and he's doing that with tons of other mystics and other things and like, you know, these Fatima children and whatnot. Um, >> so you just don't really take the accommodation approach very seriously.
¶18>> No, I I don't really I don't think it's plausible in the slightest. Um, >> but it's the best that's what I would go in for. Um, and you know, you could just say, well, you know, maybe deception is sometimes permissible. Maybe it's sometimes permissible to basically put someone in a Truman show. Or maybe I'd say like, oh, okay, maybe like some of the things that Padre Pio were like experienced were like demons, but like other things were God, even though he was able to like discern.
¶19He had certain tests that he could like perform to like very reliably discern. And you know, you can look into some of his biographies for that. But um I would go in for an accommodationist approach. That's what I would have to do, I think. Uh and I mean dude even that again like accommodationism by itself does not predict that when it comes to vindicatory miracles when it comes to distinctive revelations claimed revelations on behalf of God uh which have doctrinal content.
¶20Accommodationism does not predict that miracles vindicating those would only cluster in Catholicism. >> They could have clustered in orthodoxy or Methodism or Anglicanism or Presbyterianism. But no, that's really weird. That's really strange. >> So, what what message would you have?
¶21There's there's two groups of people that I want to uh address and see how you would address them. So, first group is atheists, agnostics. You were part of that group before you converted and then Protestants. Like, what message would you have for them? >> I know I'm kind of putting you on the spot.
¶22So well firstly um to the atheists and agnostics I would say you guys are rationally obliged to engage in conditional prayer. So this is something that I did when I was uh an agnostic. Um and maybe I did it as when I was an atheist. I don't remember. Um but basically you know I would pray things like you know God if you exist please help me to come to know you love you and serve you.
¶23You know just something like that takes like two or three seconds. Do that every day. I think you're rationally obliged to do that. Why? Well because suppose you're stranded.
¶24I talk about this with uh Matt Frad. So, you know, suppose you're stranded uh in the forest and you're out of food, but you got this like gun which allows you unlimited flares and you know, you think maybe there's like a low chance that someone's out there searching for you and who's willing to help you if you shoot up the flare. Um, you think there's a low chance. Maybe you think there's only a 1% chance or maybe you're 99% confident that atheism is true. Um, still, even if there's a 1% chance that there's someone out there who might actually like see your flare in the forest, you should shoot it and you should like continue shooting it.
¶25I mean, maybe you don't have to do that all the time. you should like look for food and whatnot and you know keep yourself alive but like at least maybe once a day shoot the flare. It would be irrational not to do that even if there's a low chance that there's someone out there looking for you. >> And likewise you know that's what praying is. It's shooting the flare.
¶26It's like trivially easy to do it. Do it within like you know a genuine openness and a loving heart. Um and ask God to change your heart and change your mind. Um and if you if you persist in doing that with all sincerity um you know God promises seek and you shall find. Seek and you shall find.
¶27So that's the advice that I'd give to atheists and agnostics. Well, in addition to like, you know, just like watch my 7-hour video. Just like have an open mind. Just like don't don't click away. Don't try to make fun of it.
¶28Like just listen. Open your mind and just listen. Just listen. Hear me out. Hear me out, man.
¶29So that that's the other thing that I'd say um is consult that video and then look at the resources that I'm citing, you know, Ethan's post and various other resources. And then to the Protestants, I would just say um again uh pray. I think commit to doing one decade of the rosary every day. One decade takes about 2 to 3 minutes. That's an our father.
¶30It's 10 Hail Marys and then it's a glory be and then it's the Fatima pair that I just gave. That takes about 2 to three minutes. You can meditate on some aspect some mystery of the rosary and you can pick ones that you know you don't have to pick the assumption if you don't believe in the assumption or whatever but just meditate while you're doing it on some some mystery of the rosary uh which are usually concerning you know Christ's life death passion and resurrection um and you know if you don't believe in saintly intercession just say beforehand to God knows your heart right say before hand to God you know if this is sinful I'm sorry you know my heart. You know, I'm I'm just I'm just seeking you. So, if this is idolatrous, if this is sinful, please forgive me.
¶31And you can say that before and after doing the prayer, but just do one decade of the rosary every day and see where that takes you. Might take you to Rome. Nice. Submit. >> Yes.
¶32Well, I mean, again, I would also just Protestants like again, I would give them the same advice like hear me out. Like listen to that 7-hour video or however long it is, my comprehensive case, and like go to the, you know, maybe you're not going to be as interested in the arguments for theism, what not cuz you're already a theist, but like go to the section where I talk about the miracles and then I go through the Protestant explanations and I go through certain meta narrative problems that I had that I have for Protestantism and various other things. go to the resources that I have in there where like I link a ton of videos that talk about saintly intercession, relics, baptism, ecclesiology, the Eucharist, you know, etc. Um, so check out that resource document and again just pray that decade of the rosary every day with all sincerity, with openness, um, so that God leads you to the truth and he leads you to the true church. Um and again seek and you shall