¶1X-TIMESTAMP-MAP=LOCAL:00:00:00.000,MPEGTS:84150000 of chapters sorry sections of verses uh and even individual verses in all of these levels you will find intricate structure and the idea is that during the prophet's structure and the idea is that during the prophet's time the way the Quran was uh authored was that it was not the prophet's time the way the Quran was uh authored was that it was not in chronological order. So the first surah to be revealed was not chapter 1 followed to be revealed was not chapter 1 followed by chapter 2 followed by chapter 3. And on top of this with especially with chapter 3. And on top of this with especially with the long suras you won't get the entire surah revealed all at once. So get the entire surah revealed all at once.
¶2So you might have a portion and then another portion and then a portion for a different then another portion and then a portion for a different chapter that goes somewhere else. And these portions even they want like 1 somewhere else. And these portions even they want like 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 12. They might have they want like 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 12. They might have been like for example 50 to 60.
¶3Okay. Now one to two. So very disordered 60. Okay. Now one to two.
¶4So very disordered in this way and on top of that the Quran deals with things that disordered in this way and on top of that the Quran deals with things that um that could not have been anticipated. that the Quran deals with things that um that could not have been anticipated. So for example uh people might have asked the prophet questions that the prophet could the prophet questions that the prophet could not have known ahead of time. Uh, and so if one was could not have known ahead of time. Uh, and so if one was trying to plan the Quran to have a structure, then this would have thrown like a monkey wrench in the plans because would have thrown like a monkey wrench in the plans because now there's a new thing that's happening.
¶5So the idea is that with all of these contingencies thing that's happening. So the idea is that with all of these contingencies in mind, the fact that the Quran has this structure, it doesn't seem like it should be structure, it doesn't seem like it should be possible. And another category of miraculous arguments should be possible. And another category of miraculous arguments for the Quran are its prophecies, which uh we're probably going to get into later into the probably going to get into later into the video in. So there's more, but these are some of the uh main ones that I would are some of the uh main ones that I would use.
¶6Subhan Allah. I was trying to think of um a Subhan Allah. I was trying to think of um a good uh analogy. It's I mean it's worth mentioning that you know this linguistic miracle mentioning that you know this linguistic miracle um it's it's like the um the smartest people of miracle um it's it's like the um the smartest people of the day in Arabia then right the the the paragon people who admired most then right the the the paragon people who admired most for their intellect were the poets and Arab poetry had like this incredible were the poets and Arab poetry had like this incredible function in society um at at the time you know this it's almost compared to at at the time you know this it's almost compared to like the scientists of today or or so on um so this was something that was developed or or so on um so this was something that was developed into a fine and they were considered the best in the world. In fact, it's widely considered were considered the best in the world.
¶7In fact, it's widely considered that no one's since has gone up to the level um of of the one's since has gone up to the level um of of the the Arab poets around this time with the exception of um even time with the exception of um even some of the the later poets. I think you there's there's three examples that the name think you there's there's three examples that the name slips my mind. One of them's um Al Mortabi, the guy who you know thought them's um Al Mortabi, the guy who you know thought he was a prophet, the like really narcissistic poet. Um and there was that other one whose name really narcissistic poet. Um and there was that other one whose name I forget who decided to like force this intense rhyming structure on himself.
¶8And who decided to like force this intense rhyming structure on himself. And um we can play some clips of it maybe with the appropriate caveats. So you can can play some clips of it maybe with the appropriate caveats. So you can you know even the the relatively untrained ear can hear the difference. Um but even the the relatively untrained ear can hear the difference.
¶9Um but then if you go into depth you can see why it was profered as being a challenge and so on. So um profered as being a challenge and so on. So um the masters of the art, the world's greatest masters of the art of Arabic poetry world's greatest masters of the art of Arabic poetry have tried to take on this challenge publicly and have failed spectacularly and you can go and challenge publicly and have failed spectacularly and you can go and analyze why and how it's failed. So you know unless Jo is going why and how it's failed. So you know unless Jo is going to educate himself to a higher level of mastery in Arabic poetry, he's going to have to defer a higher level of mastery in Arabic poetry, he's going to have to defer to the experts and the testimony otherwise he's disastrously inconsistent with himself.
¶10he's disastrously inconsistent with himself. That is actually a big problem for you, Joe. It really is. And if you want to educate yourself for you, Joe. It really is.
¶11And if you want to educate yourself deeply on Arabic poetry, then you know go for it. But I would give this analogy um the DAC Arabic poetry, then you know go for it. But I would give this analogy um the DAC equation right in quantum electronamics. My background was in physics. In fact, that's when My background was in physics.
¶12In fact, that's when I converted to Islam was going from atheist to Islam when I was studying physics. So the going from atheist to Islam when I was studying physics. So the DAC equation is um pretty universally there's always exception um pretty universally there's always exception pretty universally regarded as an exceptionally beautiful equation, exceptionally an exceptionally beautiful equation, exceptionally elegant. There is a concept of beauty and elegance which is not purely a concept of beauty and elegance which is not purely a subjective you know um I feel like this about it. It's it's an not purely a subjective you know um I feel like this about it.
¶13It's it's an intersubjective thing where um as long as you understand within intersubjective thing where um as long as you understand within sufficient detail what is going on. You know what do the terms in the detail what is going on. You know what do the terms in the equation mean? What was the problem being solved? You know what why is it so elegant?
¶14Why was the problem being solved? You know what why is it so elegant? Why can it not be beaten? Why is it within the domain that the DRA equation is address is domain that the DRA equation is address is addressing? You cannot possibly do better.
¶15It is um the most efficient is addressing? You cannot possibly do better. It is um the most efficient information dense elegant way to to approach the particular problem that information dense elegant way to to approach the particular problem that the direct equation was trying to solve. Even barring that in certain representations, people Even barring that in certain representations, people could say it looked ugly like uh um direct uh sorry not direct like Pley looked ugly like uh um direct uh sorry not direct like Pley originally did. Um but the more people understood the nature of but the more people understood the nature of that equation and the problem space the more they cannot do other nature of that equation and the problem space the more they cannot do other than agree that it is in fact incredibly elegant.
¶16This is not the no agree that it is in fact incredibly elegant. This is not the no true Scotsman's fallacy because there is an actual criteria, right? It's not that you say, "Oh, if you don't actual criteria, right? It's not that you say, "Oh, if you don't buy an elegant, you don't understand it." No, but you don't understand the criteria unless you've really studied in but you don't understand the criteria unless you've really studied in depth. So, your choices, Joe, are to study the Arabic language in depth and So, your choices, Joe, are to study the Arabic language in depth and study the Quran in depth and understand the challenge and understand why Quran in depth and understand the challenge and understand why um it's not been beaten and why it's extraordinarily unlikely to been beaten and why it's extraordinarily unlikely to imagine that anybody's ever going to beat it.
¶17or you can accept the testimony of the experts. going to beat it. or you can accept the testimony of the experts. In either case, you have no choice but to conclude according to your own standards case, you have no choice but to conclude according to your own standards that it is indeed spectacularly difficult to according to your own standards that it is indeed spectacularly difficult to uh um wave away, right? Uh you're going to have to to um wave away, right?
¶18Uh you're going to have to to stand on some really dodgy ground to try and wave that one away. have to to stand on some really dodgy ground to try and wave that one away. Uh so so there you have it, Joe. Here's your one of let's say the first challenge. your one of let's say the first challenge.
¶19Understand the thing that you just flipped away with Corinthians mock challenge. Understand the thing that you just flipped away with Corinthians mock it. Understand what you're talking about before you pronounce an opinion on it. You before you pronounce an opinion on it. You know, you know this, Joe.
¶20You know, to to to mimic one of Joe's things. You know, you know this, Joe. You know, to to to mimic one of Joe's things. No. Bad.
¶21Here's my water spray. I'm spraying you, Joe. Stop. Wake up. Bad.
¶22Here's my water spray. I'm spraying you, Joe. Stop. Wake up. You know, are you going to bet your soul on this?
¶23Go and actually study the Quran. you going to bet your soul on this? Go and actually study the Quran. Go study the linguistic system and go back and consider what you said. the linguistic system and go back and consider what you said.
¶24Right. Subhan Allah. That was that was an amazing summary. So I think uh Right. Subhan Allah.
¶25That was that was an amazing summary. So I think uh I have absolutely nothing to add to that. But I would just mention one thing that when absolutely nothing to add to that. But I would just mention one thing that when once once we played the video, there was one more remark that he made. I just one more remark that he made.
¶26I just want to bring that to the stage. So he says Islam and Judaism both suffer from a drought Islam and Judaism both suffer from a drought of impressive signs. I know. So he says Islam and Judaism both suffer from a drought So he says Islam and Judaism both suffer from a drought of impressive signs if I'm not mistaken. So here we have it the Quran as a miraculous I'm not mistaken.
¶27So here we have it the Quran as a miraculous remarkable structure remarkous linguistic style. That is one thing structure remarkous linguistic style. That is one thing that we presented. I want to play another video because I think one more thing is want to play another video because I think one more thing is missing when it comes to the Islamic discourse is that yeah I I just before we move yeah I I just before we move on that bit alone the the darth or the lack of impressive science alone the the darth or the lack of impressive science really worth pausing that even if we leave the Quran itself as a as a standing accessible that even if we leave the Quran itself as a as a standing accessible falsifiable miracle um the you know Judaism falsifiable miracle um the you know Judaism obviously there's plenty of signs throughout the prophecies of the Judah prophets signs throughout the prophecies of the Judah prophets So, so what he really means is, you know, after the fact, after they've means is, you know, after the fact, after they've had prophets, right? And likewise, uh, um, you know, with Islam, although he likewise, uh, um, you know, with Islam, although he doesn't, you know, understand it, he's thinking, well, you know, nobody's got modern day miracles attributed to to to Islam.
¶28know, nobody's got modern day miracles attributed to to to Islam. But what he fails to understand is that Judaism and Islam are on the same page that, you know, a miracle Islam are on the same page that, you know, a miracle is a miracle when it's connected with a prophet. You know, in Islam, it's even clearer that if something appears Islam, it's even clearer that if something appears to be a miracle, but it's not connected with a prophet, it's right. it's not connected with a prophet, it's right. You know, this is so this is the thing um that he has various sort of church-based thing um that he has various sort of church-based theodyies of accumulated accumulated ad hocs over time that when he sort of looks accumulated ad hocs over time that when he sort of looks back, he doesn't quite treat them as a set of ad hocs, but they are they're all ad hoc extensions lumped on top are they're all ad hoc extensions lumped on top of the Bible.
¶29Whereas in the the corpus um you have this all on top of the Bible. Whereas in the the corpus um you have this all laid out from the beginning in the in the theoretical background. Um there are no prophets theoretical background. Um there are no prophets after Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam. Therefore, when you see apparent miracles, they are not real miracles.
¶30apparent miracles, they are not real miracles. So, we would see many supernatural phenomena. We would expect supernatural supernatural phenomena. We would expect supernatural phenomena um we you know we would expect naturalists to try and explain would expect naturalists to try and explain it away according to their paradigm or just have a general skepticism to it. People who are open to the skepticism to it.
¶31People who are open to the ideas I this is another thing is Joe doesn't seem to understand that you can't just substitute jin and doesn't seem to understand that you can't just substitute jin and dema. It's just not the same thing. You know that jin can even be Muslim. They just not the same thing. You know that jin can even be Muslim.
¶32They can be you know good. they'd be bad. They they have um you know an actual ontology. There's depth um you know an actual ontology. There's depth to it.
¶33Um it doesn't So So perhaps we'll play clips later where depth to it. Um it doesn't So So perhaps we'll play clips later where it goes on to why it can't be demons arguments. But but again, this is one of those things where but again, this is one of those things where um we it's not that we wouldn't expect miracles or apparent miracles. where um we it's not that we wouldn't expect miracles or apparent miracles. It's that we would not call them actual miracles and we wouldn't say they vindicate Islam miracles and we wouldn't say they vindicate Islam because the only miracles that would vindicate Islam is when they come from false prophets.
¶34miracles that would vindicate Islam is when they come from false prophets. So, so this is where then what defines a prophet? Well, it's people who receive wahi prophet? Well, it's people who receive wahi or rather who claim to receive wahi when it's actually a lie. Well, if no one receives wahi after when it's actually a lie.
¶35Well, if no one receives wahi after Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam, then everyone who says God told me to told me this or you know what they believe everyone who says God told me to told me this or you know what they believe is God told me this, they're a false prophet. If they come with a miracle, that is exactly prophet. If they come with a miracle, that is exactly that was prophesied to happen. So, the evidence is also that was prophesied to happen. So, the evidence is also in favor with Islam.
¶36it was prophesied to happen and it's supporting the Catholic Church. was prophesied to happen and it's supporting the Catholic Church. Maybe I'm going too far ahead of where we're going, but it's supporting the Catholic Church. It's also exactly going, but it's supporting the Catholic Church. It's also exactly what we'd expect because Paul is arguably the most successful false prophet that the uh expect because Paul is arguably the most successful false prophet that the uh Shayino managed to produce, you know, ever.
¶37So, it's Shayino managed to produce, you know, ever. So, it's all all of this stuff fits like a glove. Even I mean, ever. So, it's all all of this stuff fits like a glove. Even I mean, personally, when I weigh up the evidence, it fits the Islamic picture much better.
¶38But evidence, it fits the Islamic picture much better. But at least it's it it fits the the saying. At least it's a wash at the very least. fits the the saying. At least it's a wash at the very least.
¶39Um so so his argument that he uniquely privileges Catholic Catholicism again just argument that he uniquely privileges Catholic Catholicism again just comes down to this terrible lack of understanding of the Islamic ecosystem down to this terrible lack of understanding of the Islamic ecosystem and also apparently the Jewish ecosystem which he seems to only understand through the Christian lens. which he seems to only understand through the Christian lens. Subhan Allah. So that was really brilliant and I'm really excited for that section because there's brilliant and I'm really excited for that section because there's a lot there that we have to cover some new arguments that you know people would come to know that we have to cover some new arguments that you know people would come to know but regardless so one thing that yeah we wanted to address is the miracles of prophet Muhammad wanted to address is the miracles of prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam because again this is also something that many people are ignorant on uh at least people something that many people are ignorant on uh at least people in the west. So this video is just within our own hadith corpus.
¶40this video is just within our own hadith corpus. What is there that talks that explains the well attested there that talks that explains the well attested miracles of prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam. Let's have a look at that. Scholars look at that. Scholars of hadith they have counted the miracles of the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam.
¶41miracles of the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam. scholars like Immawi Bhati um Iban Kas alaihi wasallam. scholars like Immawi Bhati um Iban Kas and others and they've said that there are over 1,000 Bhati um Iban Kas and others and they've said that there are over 1,000 miracles of the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam that has miracles of the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam that has been transmitted in this way. So um this is I'm not transmitted in this way. So um this is I'm not actually normally when people they prove the genuine messengerhood of the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam they prove the genuine messengerhood of the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam they appeal to the Quran and that's a really good thing to do um because the Quran is the really good thing to do um because the Quran is the greatest miracle of the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam but for the purposes prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam but for the purposes of this lesson I'm not uh I'm not looking at the Quran.
¶42I'm not looking at the miracle uh I'm not looking at the Quran. I'm not looking at the miracle of the Quran. Um that's something that many people have spoken about um and that's something that many people have spoken about um and people are generally well aware of. So I'm putting that aside and I'm drawing our attention well aware of. So I'm putting that aside and I'm drawing our attention to the fact that apart from the from the uh from the miracle of the Quran fact that apart from the from the uh from the miracle of the Quran there are over a thousand miracles that have been uh over a thousand miracles that have been uh testified from the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam.
¶43Some of them are mass testified. Many of them are testified through testified. Many of them are testified through change of transmission. And the shame is that most of us we aren't aware through change of transmission. And the shame is that most of us we aren't aware of these miracles.
¶44Yeah. So again that's that's just one thing I Yeah. So again that's that's just one thing I wanted to add. Now of course the whole discussion is very long of the miracles of prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam there are miracles of prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam there are so many examples that I can bring in but that will go on a different tangent. So I'll move our conversation will go on a different tangent.
¶45So I'll move our conversation back to one very important very interesting stuff which Joe Smith actually important very interesting stuff which Joe Smith actually oh yes but like look look at the after he presented this. So within his oh yes but like look look at the after he presented this. So within his uh presentation he actually attached something really interesting to uh presentation he actually attached something really interesting to have a look at which is he said Judaism gives his own scripture and you look at which is he said Judaism gives his own scripture and you know he adds a playlist and then there is regarding Islam. If you want some fun popular presentation Islam. If you want some fun popular presentation of arguments against it see testifies playlist which is here linked in the resource document.
¶46testifies playlist which is here linked in the resource document. Now this is testify. Now I I want brother Rafi because he has testify. Now I I want brother Rafi because he has he already knows who this person is and what kind of content is available on this. I what kind of content is available on this.
¶47I was really shocked to see that the best resource that Jehid brings in this. I was really shocked to see that the best resource that Jehid brings in for a critique of Islam or to to for an introduction to Islam is testify altogether introduction to Islam is testify altogether which is like two to three three minute clips which is a complete misrepresentation of Islam three minute clips which is a complete misrepresentation of Islam but yet okay so brother Rafi Raja can you can you just give us some examples? Yeah if you so brother Rafi Raja can you can you just give us some examples? Yeah if you can go ahead first. Yeah, if you want just just briefly, this this is like him can go ahead first.
¶48Yeah, if you want just just briefly, this this is like him bringing in a flatearther to explain cosmology to people. It's that bad. bringing in a flatearther to explain cosmology to people. It's that bad. This is someone else who is also tragically uneducated about Islam, is someone else who is also tragically uneducated about Islam, but arguably worse than Raphael going into the details because uh um you know worse than Raphael going into the details because uh um you know he he knows enough to also know that he's hiding stuff and that he's essentially knows enough to also know that he's hiding stuff and that he's essentially misrepresenting it as opposed to Joe who simply knows almost nothing um except for simply knows almost nothing um except for what he's told by you know his his Christian friends which is mostly from Islamophobic junk.
¶49Christian friends which is mostly from Islamophobic junk. Yeah, that reminds me I can make one more comment which is like I watching Joe Schmidt's content, more comment which is like I watching Joe Schmidt's content, you know, he has this example of Frank Turk if I'm not mistaken this example of Frank Turk if I'm not mistaken which is that he he considers Frank Turk level arguments to be very weak Frank Turk level arguments to be very weak form of arguments. If you take it from an Islamic understanding like you know this level of apologetics is from an Islamic understanding like you know this level of apologetics is even worse than Frank Turk level. So uh yeah I just wanted to mention that worse than Frank Turk level. So uh yeah I just wanted to mention that so he realizes that you know what kind of a source he provided and what it does to his credibility altogether source he provided and what it does to his credibility altogether but regardless brother Rafi what you have to mention can can you just give us some examples about what this content mention can can you just give us some examples about what this content is [snorts] let us know well there's two let us know well there's two examples of that best illustrate this so the first is that in the Quran illustrate this so the first is that in the Quran Allah says that if the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam were to fabricate lies against God sallallahu alaihi wasallam were to fabricate lies against God then God would take his right hand and cut his aorta and he would die on the spot.
¶50would take his right hand and cut his aorta and he would die on the spot. Um, okay. Now, fast forward to nearing the end of the okay. Now, fast forward to nearing the end of the prophet sallall alaihi wasallam's life. He was poisoned by a Jewish woman at wasallam's life.
¶51He was poisoned by a Jewish woman at he was given poison and uh others who had died instantly Jewish woman at he was given poison and uh others who had died instantly but the prophet he survived until uh the message was complete. Now prophet he survived until uh the message was complete. Now when he was died u he said that he could feel the poison was complete. Now when he was died u he said that he could feel the poison and that it was as if his aorta was like being severed. and that it was as if his aorta was like being severed.
¶52Now the original Christian apologist who found this wasn't testified because like an Christian apologist who found this wasn't testified because like an old argument but they basically saw the word and they got excited and and threw argument but they basically saw the word and they got excited and and threw all caution to the wind and they just started to um they were like oh but God said he would cut his iota. started to um they were like oh but God said he would cut his iota. Now the main difference is that when God said he would cut his difference is that when God said he would cut his aorta, he meant it literally like he would literally cut his aorta and he would bleed out literally like he would literally cut his aorta and he would bleed out which is different from saying it as like an expression. Now okay making that argument expression. Now okay making that argument is bad enough but then sitting down to make a video about it and not thinking about down to make a video about it and not thinking about this like the whole time he didn't think about this that the prophet was meaning it metaphorically he didn't think about this that the prophet was meaning it metaphorically to describe his pain when God melted literally right.
¶53um describe his pain when God melted literally right. um as like an instant death thing. This just shows either a massive lack of death thing. This just shows either a massive lack of um of reflection about you know what you're presenting to people or you know what you're presenting to people or dishonesty. I don't see any other third option here.
¶54And people or dishonesty. I don't see any other third option here. And so the second significant thing there of course is cutting the order. You this is um just like cutting the order. You this is um just like you you see the blood come out when you sacrifice a lamb, right?
¶55It's uh it's it's absolutely you sacrifice a lamb, right? It's uh it's it's absolutely disanalogous to to to any kind of poisoning, right? And and then to any kind of poisoning, right? And and then there are Arabic words in both of these instance have different words. They're not the same.
¶56So different words. They're not the same. So that is also something to note. Almost all Christian apologetics and the So that is also something to note. Almost all Christian apologetics and the stuff that Joe Schmidt now relies on um is critically dependent on misusing stuff that Joe Schmidt now relies on um is critically dependent on misusing English translations.
¶57So words have similar meanings or something in English um similar meanings or something in English um that's it. But you have to do the linguistic analysis. It's not the same as going back to a Greek dictionary. linguistic analysis. It's not the same as going back to a Greek dictionary.
¶58You have root words and morphologies. There is an analytical mathematically is an analytical mathematically analyzable system to the structure of Arabic words. We have to drum this in more and more. structure of Arabic words. We have to drum this in more and more.
¶59Semitic languages are not Indo-European languages if he has not specifically studied languages if he has not specifically studied them and why we can study meaning in such detail and why we can confidently meaning in such detail and why we can confidently say in this case this was meant and in that case that was meant. It's not a post hawk apologetic. meant and in that case that was meant. It's not a post hawk apologetic. It is that is what the Christians have to do.
¶60They don't have any other choice because that is what the Christians have to do. They don't have any other choice because their languages were all uh um Indo-Uropean with the exception of the Hebrew. Indo-Uropean with the exception of the Hebrew. With the Semitic languages, no, it's it's a whole different Hebrew. With the Semitic languages, no, it's it's a whole different ball game.
¶61And I'm sorry Joe, you have not studied this. You are thoroughly misled. And I'm sorry Joe, you have not studied this. You are thoroughly misled. Right.
¶62Yeah. And I think uh you know because we are Right. Yeah. And I think uh you know because we are short for time maybe we can you know skip doing another examples because we can go on and on and these can you know skip doing another examples because we can go on and on and these are all very outdated cliches that you know any Muslim who is familiar are all very outdated cliches that you know any Muslim who is familiar with the online sphere of dawa and he knows and can refute and can explain online sphere of dawa and he knows and can refute and can explain and expand on these this stuff. I think if I'm not mistaken brother Dean respond has a lot of content.
¶63mistaken brother Dean respond has a lot of content. I think he's already addressed many of these things. So people can have a look at that. We have to move people can have a look at that. We have to move on because there's one more very important before there's another before we can just one quick thing inshallah before we can just one quick thing inshallah very quickly remember his belief in the uh uh inshallah very quickly remember his belief in the uh uh Christian miracles you know occurring especially the ones during the life of the prophet Isaam you know occurring especially the ones during the life of the prophet Isaam um are based on the strength of the testimonial evidence adding up you know um are based on the strength of the testimonial evidence adding up you know there's it's not just in the four gospels it's also in Josephus and Tacitus gospels it's also in Josephus and Tacitus you know you you can't just throw that away as it was thing, but compare that to throw that away as it was thing, but compare that to the hadith sciences, to the chain of that you have, you know, that the chain of that you have, you know, that we require before we would dare say this was a miracle that was done.
¶64Um, you this was a miracle that was done. Um, you if you were to use the same system that we require in Islam, you if you were to use the same system that we require in Islam, you would not have a single red letter line in your in your Bible. You would have a single red letter line in your in your Bible. You would not have anything from Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. You would not be able to accept the testimony of Tacitus would not be able to accept the testimony of Tacitus and Josephus.
¶65All of them lack the chain and they lack the chain containing of them lack the chain and they lack the chain containing people with details about their life sufficiently well known. Uh they they lack the details of analyzing known. Uh they they lack the details of analyzing uh um the the ability to analyze whether or not the chains are independent and so on and so forth. So, analyze whether or not the chains are independent and so on and so forth. So, so in terms of the history, the historical um uh testimonial so in terms of the history, the historical um uh testimonial evidence for the miracles of Mhammed wasam, it mogs to use your words, for the miracles of Mhammed wasam, it mogs to use your words, it mogs the quality and the potential even historical analysis available quality and the potential even historical analysis available to anything in Christianity, anything in the Bible, anything in Christianity, anything in the Bible, absolutely none of it really comes up to the level um the Bible, absolutely none of it really comes up to the level um that we as Muslims require in order to say X happened.
¶66Subhan Allah. Yeah, that that was really important. So I I am I Subhan Allah. Yeah, that that was really important. So I I am I really enjoy all these small bits that you are adding in.
¶67And one resource that I would add actually And one resource that I would add actually two uh I covered with brother Petrit Kola one video on the actually two uh I covered with brother Petrit Kola one video on the uh miraculous aspect of the Quran. People can have a look at the screen. I will put the video thumbnail can have a look at the screen. I will put the video thumbnail over there. And another is a whole uh series of another is a whole uh series of one video like it was a three-hour long video on the proofs of prophethood where we actually cover the reliability prophethood where we actually cover the reliability of the hadith and stuff like that.
¶68Scholars who actually have done some study that. Scholars who actually have done some study western scholars on the hadith what their comments are. People can have a look at that as well. It's going can have a look at that as well. It's going to be a good resource.
¶69Now let's move on to a very important video. going to be a good resource. Now let's move on to a very important video. Then the third option is like oh it's just it's just predal. So it's Then the third option is like oh it's just it's just predal.
¶70So it's demonic forces doing it. And of course, you know, like within our tradition, we have like we have various biblical tests by know, like within our tradition, we have like we have various biblical tests by which we can tell whether or not someone is Yeah. It's not an arbitrary explanation we throw Yeah. It's not an arbitrary explanation we throw out there. No.
¶71Like there's Jesus gives us the fruits test. So you know them by their fruits, right? So like uh is fruits test. So you know them by their fruits, right? So like uh is it someone who is a serial liar, a serial fornicator, a serial adulterer who's who is a serial liar, a serial fornicator, a serial adulterer who's like claiming that um God I know you know you know who I'm talking about.
¶72I know exactly what I'm talking about. He's like literally I know exactly what I'm talking about. He's like literally claiming that uh uh polygamy is like an abomination to God, but then is like polygamy is like an abomination to God, but then is like having polygamous relationships take at least 33 wives. And then he's also like um like sacrificing a And then he's also like um like sacrificing a sheep to a demon. And then also he's like engaging in all these occult practices that are explicitly forbidden.
¶73And even though God forbidden. And even though God commands the polygamous activities, he hides it from his wife, is not forthright about it, lies his wife, is not forthright about it, lies about it publicly. Well, and I believe that that is the the weakest link in the Mormon case that believe that that is the the weakest link in the Mormon case that they're they very much do not want to talk about the moral character of Joseph Smith, they very much do not want to talk about the moral character of Joseph Smith, which is relevant. Like we could have popes that have poor moral character, they're not the prophetic foundational popes that have poor moral character, they're not the prophetic foundational elements of our faith. But if like if Jesus elements of our faith.
¶74But if like if Jesus could have said the exact same thing, oh no, um Jesus doesn't pass the fruits test because he's advocating for all these different practices that fruits test because he's advocating for all these different practices that go against the Torah. So actually it's really bad. But no, you're presupposing the theology in the background really bad. But no, you're presupposing the theology in the background to evaluate the fruits test. But no, what Jesus is talking about is like is someone like Jesus is talking about is like is someone like Muhammad or is the person like you know Joseph Smith or are they like Padre Peio and St.
¶75like you know Joseph Smith or are they like Padre Peio and St. Bernardet Serberu and like venerable Lucia and whatnot. So our our Serberu and like venerable Lucia and whatnot. So our our divine our claimed divine legates where even a disinterested observer could note where even a disinterested observer could note the more. Okay.
¶76Yeah. So this is very interesting. I want to play this clip again. what he Okay. Yeah.
¶77So this is very interesting. I want to play this clip again. what he did first he gave us description about Joseph Smith and then very sweepingly did first he gave us description about Joseph Smith and then very sweepingly he tried to make create a group of Joseph Smith and prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam one group and Smith and prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam one group and then the saints the name of the saints that he is uh talking about so this is something very interesting uh talking about so this is something very interesting to note what Jesus is talking about is like the theology could have said the talking about is like the theology could have said the exact same thing oh no um Jesus doesn't pass the fruits test because he's advocating for all these different practices that go against because he's advocating for all these different practices that go against the Torah so actually it's really bad but no you're presupposing the theology in the background to you're presupposing the theology in the background to evaluate the fruits test. But no, what Jesus is talking about is like is someone like Muhammad But no, what Jesus is talking about is like is someone like Muhammad or is the person like you know Joseph Smith or are they like Padre Peio and St. Bernardet person like you know Joseph Smith or are they like Padre Peio and St.
¶78Bernardet Serberu and like venerable Lucia and whatnot. So yeah. So so this whatnot. So yeah. So so this is very interesting to note that uh he made a claim a few claims about Joseph Smith and note that uh he made a claim a few claims about Joseph Smith and without mentioning anything very sweepingly he adds prophetam's name within that group.
¶79mentioning anything very sweepingly he adds prophetam's name within that group. So I thought that this is very important to mention. So I want to know what do you guys think about this? to mention. So I want to know what do you guys think about this?
¶80Brother Islam if you want to add anything and you go first brother Rafi and I'll if you want to add anything and you go first brother Rafi and I'll add yeah brother you can go first. Yeah yeah sure brother what is what is your Yeah yeah sure brother what is what is your take on this? Well I prepared a few uh hadith reports your take on this? Well I prepared a few uh hadith reports to I guess answer this. Um okay so Well I prepared a few uh hadith reports to I guess answer this.
¶81Um okay so my main understanding of what J's problem was with main understanding of what J's problem was with mainly his battles mainly his battles with because I remember him mainly his battles with because I remember him once when he was agnostic. So I guess okay before we get into that once when he was agnostic. So I guess okay before we get into that I would like to start by giving an overview of the character of the prophet like to start by giving an overview of the character of the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam and these are all from the hadith corpus right because if you're going to use the the hadith corpus right because if you're going to use the hadith corpus uh to find things that you don't like about you're going to use the hadith corpus uh to find things that you don't like about his character then it's only fair that we should also be allowed to use it to uh you make we should also be allowed to use it to uh you make our case as well and I would argue that our case uh hadith that were general argue that our case uh hadith that were general in that they talk about generalities the way was uh overall whereas these generalities the way was uh overall whereas these isolated reports often tend to be taken out of context and don't have that same tend to be taken out of context and don't have that same uh they don't have that same advantage as I will show. So okay that same advantage as I will show. So okay first so we're going to go through his aestheticism first right so his aestheticism first right so uh in Muslim 2972 his aestheticism first right so uh in Muslim 2972 said that we the family of Muhammad wasallam said that we the family of Muhammad wasallam used to spend the whole month in which we did not need to kindle the fire as we had nothing to cook in which we did not need to kindle the fire as we had nothing to cook they had only dates and water bkari uh the prophetam this is narrated Har uh the prophetam this is narrated Har the prophet sallall alaihi wasallam did not leave a din or these are coins.
¶82He did not leave any did not leave a din or these are coins. He did not leave any of these coins or a male or a female bonds person. He only left his male or a female bonds person. He only left his white mule in which to ride and his weapons and a piece of land which he gave in charity like for needy his weapons and a piece of land which he gave in charity like for needy travelers. Okay.
¶83So this shows us his character that there wasn't much to eat at character that there wasn't much to eat at his home. And even when he died, we see the possessions he had when at his home. And even when he died, we see the possessions he had when he was in charge of the entire Arabian Peninsula. He could have had these things if he wanted to, but Peninsula. He could have had these things if he wanted to, but he chose not to.
¶84Uh, okay. Now, things if he wanted to, but he chose not to. Uh, okay. Now, said that the prophet was never beat anyone with his hand, neither a woman nor a servant, anyone with his hand, neither a woman nor a servant, but only in which he had been fighting in the cause of Allah. So, the wars and he never took been fighting in the cause of Allah.
¶85So, the wars and he never took revenge for anything unless the things made was made inviable by Allah. anything unless the things made was made inviable by Allah. uh were violated then he would do it for the sake of Allah and not for his own he would do it for the sake of Allah and not for his own uh self. Uh Muslim 2593 he would do it for the sake of Allah and not for his own uh self. Uh Muslim 2593 uh Allah is kind and he loves kindness and being pleasant.
¶86Oh, uh Allah is kind and he loves kindness and being pleasant. Oh, subhan Allah. subhan Allah. It's a bad time to uh to lose his connection. Um I'll just carry on lose his connection.
¶87Um I'll just carry on while he was uh while he's reconnecting. Another hadith that I would love to bring to the attention of reconnecting. Another hadith that I would love to bring to the attention of Joe and his followers um is on the death of Joe and his followers um is on the death of Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam's son one of his sons there was an eclipse of Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam's son one of his sons there was an eclipse an eclipse on the death of his son now if he was an eclipse on the death of his son now if he was mad or if he was you know older if he was you know uh trying to to if he was mad or if he was you know older if he was you know uh trying to to use this for power or anything else like this you know whe whether he was mad or whether he was systematically this you know whe whether he was mad or whether he was systematically deviously doing it or whatever it gods. That would be the number one doing it or whatever it gods. That would be the number one sign.
¶88You would you would point at that and you would stand on the hill and you'd say, "Look, look, would point at that and you would stand on the hill and you'd say, "Look, look, my son has just died. There's an eclipse. This proves, you know, um my my my prophethhood, eclipse. This proves, you know, um my my my prophethhood, right?" But he didn't say that. He said uh um and you know, people came say that.
¶89He said uh um and you know, people came to him with this assumption because it was so obvious. This is how easy it would have been to play it. But because it was so obvious. This is how easy it would have been to play it. But you know he is he is truthful and uh and he says no the the you know he is he is truthful and uh and he says no the the sun and the moon don't uh the exact wording I think is also their course um for the birth don't uh the exact wording I think is also their course um for the birth and death of uh birth or death of any man you know think about this death of uh birth or death of any man you know think about this what does that mean about the character in Abuhamad sallallahu alaihi wasallam you know not only does he sallallahu alaihi wasallam you know not only does he have that foresight and he shunned all of these these um basic you know beliefs that shunned all of these these um basic you know beliefs that would have just been so obvious you know to the people around him he thinks of the sun and as him he thinks of the sun and as being on their appointed course, as being on on the uh uh you know, the trajectories that they can set being on on the uh uh you know, the trajectories that they can set on.
¶90He's well aware of that and he's absolutely not using this this you know handed well aware of that and he's absolutely not using this this you know handed to on a plate um tool of manipulation that was that was available. on a plate um tool of manipulation that was that was available. Anyone thinking that Muhammad sallall alaihi wasallam is other than a genuine that Muhammad sallall alaihi wasallam is other than a genuine prophet, this hadith alone should really really give them pause. How does hadith alone should really really give them pause. How does that work?
¶91Subhan Allah. Yeah, that that was a brilliant point. I agree. And and this like you know we can spend the entire night just talking about the like you know we can spend the entire night just talking about the character of prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam but it requires someone genuine and sincere to actually study the life wasallam but it requires someone genuine and sincere to actually study the life of prophet wasallam which you don't find many people do in the west. This is again another many people do in the west.
¶92This is again another issue that I want to bring up is Dr. Latif actually talks about how to bring up is Dr. Latif actually talks about how like within the literature like for example even Thomas Aquinus about how like within the literature like for example even Thomas Aquinus or John of Damascus they themselves portrayed prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam in a very bad way portrayed prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam in a very bad way and you know this theme has been running since then if I'm not mistaken of since then if I'm not mistaken of fall like having a bad picture of prophet Mham and his character someone anyone who's sincere prophet Mham and his character someone anyone who's sincere when they study deeply uh they would only find sincerity in deeply uh they would only find sincerity in the life of prophet Muhammad only kind perseverance remarkable example in the life of prophet Muhammad only kind perseverance remarkable example of perseverance, sincerity more like you know compassion uh perseverance, sincerity more like you know compassion uh on his on on the most utmost level because any many historians that you actually on on the most utmost level because any many historians that you actually read the life of prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam actually say that calling prophet wasallam an imposer sallallahu alaihi wasallam actually say that calling prophet wasallam an imposer creates far more problems than it solves because that's true when you keep everything together and because that's true when you keep everything together and within my prophethood series there's a lot that we me and brother patri kakar so I would advise people to go me and brother patri kakar so I would advise people to go through Right. And then also I want to mention because he talks about the fruits then also I want to mention because he talks about the fruits test. So also we need to keep in mind when he's trying to put prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam and put prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam and Joseph Smith together uh he cannot do that because who is prophet Muhammad wasallam?
¶93We have to clarify cannot do that because who is prophet Muhammad wasallam? We have to clarify also prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam by far Dr. Aliata also prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam by far Dr. Aliata and many people mentioned is the greatest monotheist who has ever stepped foot on earth. monotheist who has ever stepped foot on earth.
¶94when we are talking about any monotheistic tradition, no monotheistic tradition that is non-Islamic monotheistic tradition, no monotheistic tradition that is non-Islamic can wave away prophet Muhammad's life his prophethood away prophet Muhammad's life his prophethood uh just like that because they have to deal with his success which no they have to deal with his success which no other prophet ever was able to reach and then for example in no other prophet ever was able to reach and then for example in Dr. Mohammed Shavi's book he actually makes a very powerful case that prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam's success story sallallahu alaihi wasallam's success story is the greatest success story that has ever been there. M so how do you deal with when you're talking so how do you deal with when you're talking about the fruits how do you deal with the greatest success story on earth how do you how with the greatest success story on earth how do you how do you deal with the fact that prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam is the best character as a father as that prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam is the best character as a father as a statesman as a legislator as a prophet as a as a spiritual statesman as a legislator as a prophet as a as a spiritual guide as as a good husband as a good companion as a as a spiritual guide as as a good husband as a good companion as a good friend and you would find the best combination of those qualities friend and you would find the best combination of those qualities in prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam And I'm not just the Muslims are saying this. Even non-Muslim wasallam And I'm not just the Muslims are saying this. Even non-Muslim scholars who study Prophet Musai wasallam's life.
¶95They say this. This is why Michael Hart wasallam's life. They say this. This is why Michael Hart he considers Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam to be the most influential man on earth. Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam to be the most influential man on earth.
¶96Why would he categorize that? He did not even put Jesus on the second number that I think Jesus is on third even put Jesus on the second number that I think Jesus is on third number [snorts] because by far anyone who studies prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam's life they prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam's life they they can see the fruit for like it's undeniable. It's undeni the fruit for like it's undeniable. It's undeni the fruits are undeniable in that sense. And it's worth noting that while some Christians would say, well, no, sense.
¶97And it's worth noting that while some Christians would say, well, no, Jesus was at least if not more influential. Well, hang on a minute. No, because the the group influential. Well, hang on a minute. No, because the the group around him were influenced by him were actually pretty small.
¶98Actually, you know, Paul's influenced by him were actually pretty small. Actually, you know, Paul's traditions, which were clearly at odds in many cases with um at least traditions, which were clearly at odds in many cases with um at least what's reported about about what Jesus said. You know, it he's he's the one reported about about what Jesus said. You know, it he's he's the one that had uh that had the success. So your qualifier of prophets, meaning genuine prophets, was qualifier of prophets, meaning genuine prophets, was actually very important there.
¶99Um, you know, Jesus was sent specifically to the people of Israel, there. Um, you know, Jesus was sent specifically to the people of Israel, the lost sheep of the house of Israel. There's no getting around that. You know, it's absolutely There's no getting around that. You know, it's absolutely clear.
¶100So to then attribute the success and say, "Oh, well, you know, look at all this that was sent well, you know, look at all this that was sent around, you know, Europe and everywhere else." That's not who Jesus was sent to. That's not actually influence of was sent to. That's not actually influence of Jesus. All of that stuff was influenced of Paul, the the the church fathers, the, you know, the was influenced of Paul, the the the church fathers, the, you know, the Catholic Church foundation. and so on and so forth.
¶101Um it's a whole whole different uh and so forth. Um it's a whole whole different uh uh ball game. Um and just one other thing I wanted to say on on the fruits test, this is this was one other thing I wanted to say on on the fruits test, this is this was a stunning um logistic uh sorry logical the fruits test, this is this was a stunning um logistic uh sorry logical um failure on on on behalf of Job because you have to presuppose failure on on on behalf of Job because you have to presuppose a theology to do the fruits test. You're already presupposing some kind of utilitarianism, presupposing some kind of utilitarianism, some kind of, you know, goodness measure and that can only come from your theology. goodness measure and that can only come from your theology.
¶102And I would say well hang on a minute. Um you know what's this this goodness look at the foundations this this goodness look at the foundations again your point about Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam his pure monotheism you know so subhan Allah you pure monotheism you know so subhan Allah you know hero Israel your lord is one right nobody has done that more clearly you know hero Israel your lord is one right nobody has done that more clearly and more absolutely Muhammad sallaihi wasallam um you know refusing idols and more absolutely Muhammad sallaihi wasallam um you know refusing idols rather than making excuses and saying they're not technically idols and and praying to other than Allah other than the god praying to other than Allah other than the god and all this kind of stuff. So if if if anything can be an objective fruits test, if if if anything can be an objective fruits test, um the monotheism, the rejection of idolatry and the purity of that rejection of idolatry and the purity of that is is is the best possible, you know, fruits fruits test being passed. But even know, fruits fruits test being passed. But even that, you have to admit, presupposes the theology, presupposes some way to evaluate presupposes the theology, presupposes some way to evaluate whether or not the fruits are good.
¶103And so for him to make such a logical fruits are good. And so for him to make such a logical blunder is is again quite stunning. he's really seems to have been overwhelmed by stunning. he's really seems to have been overwhelmed by something that is uh not rational and is rationalizing it and it's rational and is rationalizing it and it's it's this led to a a drop off a cliff of his analytical capabilities it's it's this led to a a drop off a cliff of his analytical capabilities that he became known for. Right.
¶104Right. I agree and alhamdulillah I think we are Right. Right. I agree and alhamdulillah I think we are pretty much on time because I was uh actually I thought I think we are pretty much on time because I was uh actually I thought that the max that we could go only within the Islamic section uh would be the max that we could go only within the Islamic section uh would be 45 minutes and alhamdulillah almost 45 minutes. Yeah.
¶105So now and alhamdulillah almost 45 minutes. Yeah. So now now just quickly I can't because I can't resist. You mentioned Thomas Aquinus which resist. You mentioned Thomas Aquinus which is important because you know obviously Joe Schmidt here you know rates Thomas Aquinus obviously Joe Schmidt here you know rates Thomas Aquinus very highly.
¶106He stated before um you know the clip that that uh um he's stated before um you know the clip that that uh um he's probably the the greatest um meta edition that Christendom's greatest um meta edition that Christendom's ever known um you know on the history of prison something along those lines here he really really rates him those lines here he really really rates him he doesn't seem to be aware the extent to which Thomas Aquinus and him he doesn't seem to be aware the extent to which Thomas Aquinus and his success critically depends on the Islamic sciences success critically depends on the Islamic sciences critically depends on and I I I mean that in terms of the the Islamic theological sciences and I I I mean that in terms of the the Islamic theological sciences um but also on the the broader sciences and philosophical inquiry um but also on the the broader sciences and philosophical inquiry of the the Arabs and the Persians under the Islamic empires and the Khalifs and because they they empires and the Khalifs and because they they are largely the reason why Thomas Aquinus was remotely familiar with Aristotle in the first place Aquinus was remotely familiar with Aristotle in the first place and he didn't just take Aristotle as Aristotle introduced himself absolutely didn't just take Aristotle as Aristotle introduced himself absolutely not he took it along with all the commentaries all the the the questions the took it along with all the commentaries all the the the questions the narratives the introdu the the the um you know uh uh potential the introdu the the the um you know uh uh potential changes, problems, like the whole the whole um how do you say uh potential changes, problems, like the whole the whole um how do you say uh the analysis and meta narrative and all that kind of stuff. the whole the whole lot he gobbled kind of stuff. the whole the whole lot he gobbled up all of you know many hundreds of years of of analysis he gobbled up all of you know many hundreds of years of of analysis by all these esteemed intellectuals and you know these esteemed intellectuals and you know then presented that to the to Christian world presented it in Latin and so on Christian world presented it in Latin and so on that's why he appeared to be such a genius because you know he was the conduit of this massive amount such a genius because you know he was the conduit of this massive amount of knowledge getting compressed in one person's writings and getting getting sent out there so you know this person's writings and getting getting sent out there so you know this whole thing about him being this great metaphysician because he seen to make this massive leap from, you know, there was Aristotle this massive leap from, you know, there was Aristotle and then there was Aquinus. Look at him. It's amazing.
¶107It's stolen valor. Aquinus. Look at him. It's amazing. It's stolen valor.
¶108It's almost exclusively stolen valor. Um and and if you look at the the the Muslim stolen valor. Um and and if you look at the the the Muslim metaphysicians, they were still far ahead of Aquinus, especially when it comes to things like were still far ahead of Aquinus, especially when it comes to things like the arguments from contingency, arguments from dependency, um you know, and all these kind of arguments from dependency, um you know, and all these kind of things, which is something Joe, you should be interested in. I don't know where you learned the something Joe, you should be interested in. I don't know where you learned the calam arguments from.
¶109But you know, kalam is about Islamic sciences. You don't get kalam is about Islamic sciences. You don't get it from William Lane Craig. William Lane Craig's argument is not the Kalam William Lane Craig's argument is not the Kalam argument. It's a terrible version of it.
¶110You want to go back to the original colam, you'll see it's of it. You want to go back to the original colam, you'll see it's good. You'll see it's very interesting, but it has serious problems. Those problems were addressed by has serious problems. Those problems were addressed by Alazari.
¶111and Al Ghazali picked up even the modal collapse that people Ghazali picked up even the modal collapse that people are so proud of and in fact use the modal collapse to demonstrate why the creator has to have a demonstrate why the creator has to have a will right and and and and the the ongoing intellect that goes along with that ongoing intellect that goes along with that the will the intention to act and so on the depth you are missing Joe that the will the intention to act and so on the depth you are missing Joe the depth you are missing the the reality that underlies the propagandist depth you are missing the the reality that underlies the propagandist narratives you have been fed upon which you learned Christianity on which you learned how to how you learned Christianity on which you learned how to how to face and address Islam. You, if you're still interested in the truth, You, if you're still interested in the truth, you have no choice but to dedicate a significant amount of your time to studying Islam. dedicate a significant amount of your time to studying Islam. You need to understand it at least as well as you understand Catholicism. understand it at least as well as you understand Catholicism.
¶112Okay. Subhan Allah. Yeah, that's a good point. And of course, this is in good faith. point.
¶113And of course, this is in good faith. He want actually uh we want him to explore uh Islam all together. faith. He want actually uh we want him to explore uh Islam all together. And you want like just like you know love we love for brother what we love for ourselves which is the truthfulness love for brother what we love for ourselves which is the truthfulness of Islam.
¶114So we want Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. Don't let the frustration Yeah. Don't let the frustration my voice get to you know as if I'm disparaging of Joe.
¶115It's it's it's get to you know as if I'm disparaging of Joe. It's it's it's actually the frustration comes from because he does seem so capable. And I was frustration comes from because he does seem so capable. And I was I was shocked that he hasn't done this. I was shocked that you know when he his dominoes started falling that you know when he his dominoes started falling into into theism you know being being potential he didn't then sort of take a step back know being being potential he didn't then sort of take a step back and take a you know a calm collective view and think I need to understand you know the the spectrum of think I need to understand you know the the spectrum of of of monotheistic beliefs at least you know better and so on um you beliefs at least you know better and so on um you know this is you can do better Joe I know you can do better um and and on um you know this is you can do better Joe I know you can do better um and and and and I I wish you would I want the good for you um so this is where my and and I I wish you would I want the good for you um so this is where my frustration comes from I'm I'm not you attacking you.
¶116I feel like you've been misled. attacking you. I feel like you've been misled. Um, and I don't even know, you know, it doesn't necessarily seem to be your fault. It seems to know, it doesn't necessarily seem to be your fault.
¶117It seems to be a an artifact of the environment you grew up in and the environment you of the environment you grew up in and the environment you you developed and cut your teeth in in the philosophical circles. But, man, it's it's it's cut your teeth in in the philosophical circles. But, man, it's it's it's time to spread your wings a bit. It's with the way you sort of gloss to spread your wings a bit. It's with the way you sort of gloss over and and and denigrate and just uh you know deal with Islam as if and denigrate and just uh you know deal with Islam as if it's nothing or just like a kind of quasi Judaism.
¶118Snap out of it, man. It's like a kind of quasi Judaism. Snap out of it, man. It's nothing like that. The depth of it is extraordinary.
¶119And if it didn't have that extraordinary depth, depth of it is extraordinary. And if it didn't have that extraordinary depth, it would not have had the role it had in developing metaphysics that you love so would not have had the role it had in developing metaphysics that you love so much in the first place, you know, in developing logic, logical analysis, different types developing logic, logical analysis, different types of logic. you know, even it wasn't just classical logic, you know, back in the day. Um, it wasn't just classical logic, you know, back in the day. Um, you know, all all of these things, the the the actual, you know, scientific method itself that you used you know, scientific method itself that you used to put so much weight in when you were when you're a naturalist, you know, think about this the the way you were when you're a naturalist, you know, think about this the the way the scientists managed to develop.
¶120They managed to do this collective analysis and so on. It was when they started managed to do this collective analysis and so on. It was when they started saying this person did this experiment and they and they track essentially an isnad, right, of and they and they track essentially an isnad, right, of what's going on. The hadith sciences when they came were were new. Nobody used them for hadith sciences when they came were were new.
¶121Nobody used them for historical analysis. Nobody used something like it for historical analysis um or or or analysis. Nobody used something like it for historical analysis um or or or uh for for uh you know other sciences. And you for for uh you know other sciences. And you know that is the tradition that got fed into Europe.
¶122The the And you know that is the tradition that got fed into Europe. The the story of just being the Greeks and then basically nothing and then suddenly just being the Greeks and then basically nothing and then suddenly the Renaissance followed by the Enlightenment cuz the Europeans are so superior to everyone else in the world Enlightenment cuz the Europeans are so superior to everyone else in the world is a colonial fantasy. It's not historically real. And is a colonial fantasy. It's not historically real.
¶123And recognizing that isn't just about giving attribution where it's due. It's about understanding isn't just about giving attribution where it's due. It's about understanding the the the underlying philosophy itself. It's about understanding how these itself. It's about understanding how these things really work.
¶124Um you know, once you are not misled about the history, you'll once you are not misled about the history, you'll be able to more clearly see the these ideas in their rightful place. You'll be able to evaluate things much place. You'll be able to evaluate things much more clearly. Please Joe, you know, take this take this stuff seriously. Especially take this take this stuff seriously.
¶125Especially as you like to say your soul is depending on this Especially as you like to say your soul is depending on this right so now I think the section that we are going to cover is the most interesting section are going to cover is the most interesting section because this will go into so many things that I love the chin because this will go into so many things that I love the chin hypothesis his claim for miracles how would Islam respond to such a thing claim for miracles how would Islam respond to such a thing altogether so before we go into any of this I just want to play one video where before we go into any of this I just want to play one video where I want to see the argument that Joe makes for unseen beings So before see the argument that Joe makes for unseen beings So before we go go to any place, I think this is important to bring up how Joe is making a case for unseen bring up how Joe is making a case for unseen beings and their existence. It's hardly It's hardly anticedently implausible that he would create a vast multitude of beings. Some merely vegetative, some sensient but beings. Some merely vegetative, some sensient but nonrational, some rational and embodied like us, and others that are purely spiritual and vastly more intelligent than us. I mean, like, are purely spiritual and vastly more intelligent than us.
¶126I mean, like, think of the gap between us and God, right? Like they got this really puny intellect here, Like they got this really puny intellect here, and then there's just like this vast gap of God. Like I don't know. uh it seems like I don't know fitting that vast gap of God. Like I don't know.
¶127uh it seems like I don't know fitting that there might be like even higher like even hierarchy of intelligence above us even hierarchy of intelligence above us uh conditional on theism like why not I mean like it's good to create more good beings with whom God can good to create more good beings with whom God can share his life it seems perfect perfectly reasonable that God might create many kinds of rational beings with whom he can share might create many kinds of rational beings with whom he can share his life and who can enter into relationships with him and with one another for all of eternity at least restricting ourselves with him and with one another for all of eternity at least restricting ourselves to like the value of the created realm that can bring about like arguably infinitely more good if there are more creatures infinitely more good if there are more creatures if they're like more rational creatures with whom he can share his life for all of eternity be all that surprising. life for all of eternity be all that surprising. It may still be improbable, but not like prohibitively improbable, not negligibly improbable, that God might create not negligibly improbable, that God might create angelic beings who then go on to be demons. Third, belief in the existence of demons and testimonial reports of their existence existence of demons and testimonial reports of their existence are panultural and span millennia. If there's extremely widespread belief in panultural and span millennia.
¶128If there's extremely widespread belief in and testimonial reports of interactions with a class of beings, you shouldn't have a negligible prior with a class of beings, you shouldn't have a negligible prior in the existence of said being. Okay. So, one thing to note here, very important. So now Okay. So, one thing to note here, very important.
¶129So now we fifthly cover a lot because there's a lot to cover is that he makes the argument that okay there's a he makes the argument that okay there's a huge gap between our intellect and god. So to fill that gap he's positing some god. So to fill that gap he's positing some beings and he of course in many theodicities he's using the reference of these beings which theodicities he's using the reference of these beings which actually shows that these beings would be smarter than human beings. Now these beings would be smarter than human beings. Now one thing that I want to raise just a question is that if these beings are smarter than human beings okay beings are smarter than human beings okay will the deception will be will the deception would be like uh very okay will the deception will be will the deception would be like uh very like you know kind of childish or something along the lines or will the deception be something that we have to think oh there's a something that we have to think oh there's a smarter being who's trying to deceive us uh cuz he admits that they will turn into demons what deceive us uh cuz he admits that they will turn into demons what kind of deception they will have I just want to keep in mind this thought that okay if they are smarter than this they're keep in mind this thought that okay if they are smarter than this they're they are smarter than us then that deception we have to be very careful and understand what we have to be very careful and understand what kind of deception they can impose on us.
¶130Yeah, exactly. There's a second really important factor which There's a second really important factor which is, you know, what is their capacity to act, right? Humans can move our hands, right, capacity to act, right? Humans can move our hands, right, and use our voices. That's that's basically our capacity to act.
¶131Um, but then, That's that's basically our capacity to act. Um, but then, you know, with the intelligence that allows us to connect to tools and other machines, you know, intelligence that allows us to connect to tools and other machines, you know, extends the capacity and so on. It's the intellect that gives us this. But then these these other beings, intellect that gives us this. But then these these other beings, yeah, certainly would have different capacities to act because they're causally linked into the the capacities to act because they're causally linked into the the uh um into the natural foundation.
¶132Side note, in Islam, the natural foundation. Side note, in Islam, angels and the jin are not supernatural. They are part of the natural order. This is a very important point because They are part of the natural order. This is a very important point because when he sort of, you know, do these things as supernatural, you it's it's you've already supernatural, you it's it's you've already basically blown apart the the Islamic framework.
¶133should really understand what what the natural order means understand what what the natural order means and that the angels manage all the affairs on on uh you know anyway that the angels are are affairs on on uh you know anyway that the angels are are sort of managers and implement implementers of so many affairs not all affairs. Um implement implementers of so many affairs not all affairs. Um so yeah I I just really wanted to to sort of you know make that just really wanted to to sort of you know make that point. We're talking about beings of the natural order that just you know because of the nature of those beings just you know because of the nature of those beings do not intersect with the senses and means to act that we have directly. They intersect with senses and means to act that we have directly.
¶134They intersect with our lives indirectly, which is why they're part of the unseen aspect of the indirectly, which is why they're part of the unseen aspect of the natural order. That's the way we see it. And I think, by the way, Joe, that is a much cleaner metaphysic by the way, Joe, that is a much cleaner metaphysic in the first place as an analytical foundation. It's very clean. And it's analytical foundation.
¶135It's very clean. And it's worth noting while we're here, this idea of angelic beings going on to become this idea of angelic beings going on to become demons. Now this is a fundamental very interesting difference Now this is a fundamental very interesting difference in that because angels obey God. Full stop. interesting difference in that because angels obey God.
¶136Full stop. No exceptions. Do not pass go. Do not collect 200. There is no exception.
¶137exceptions. Do not pass go. Do not collect 200. There is no exception. The angels obey God.
¶138That is one type of creation. The ones who obey angels obey God. That is one type of creation. The ones who obey him. And then there are other beings who also have intellect um then there are other beings who also have intellect um but are different from us.
¶139Right? And these do have incredible intelligence and very us. Right? And these do have incredible intelligence and very long lives. It allows them to build up, you know, more knowledge than us in some ways and so on and so forth.
¶140Um, and vastly knowledge than us in some ways and so on and so forth. Um, and vastly different capacities to act. Um, but they were never angels. Think what what does it mean never angels. Think what what does it mean to be an angel in the first place, right?
¶141You you have to be able to, you know, not have to right? You you have to be able to, you know, not have to think how much greater it is in your language for God to be able to create different beings. Some who able to create different beings. Some who follow him and some who do not follow him. People might question why in your theology, Joe, follow him.
¶142People might question why in your theology, Joe, no one follows God. Absolutely. Subhan Allah. In your theology, Joe, no one follows God. Absolutely.
¶143Subhan Allah. In your theology, God doesn't seem to have had space to make anything that just follows him. space to make anything that just follows him. Subhan Allah. You know, everything has the chance to become, you know, demons and so on.
¶144has the chance to become, you know, demons and so on. This is uh you know, or to become evil. You know, this is this is really tragic. So, or to become evil. You know, this is this is really tragic.
¶145So, we have a much cleaner, much better metaphysic. we have, much cleaner, much better metaphysic. we have, you know, El, but he's not a fallen angel. He was a great worshipper of fallen angel. He was a great worshipper of God, of Allah, no doubt, but he sinned and transgressed as he was of God, of Allah, no doubt, but he sinned and transgressed as he was one to do.
¶146Um, and and the manner of his transgression was was interesting. do. Um, and and the manner of his transgression was was interesting. So, I I just really wanted to to sort of point out, especially under this sort of, you know, smarter out, especially under this sort of, you know, smarter or more powerful, you know, rubric, um, there's different beings have know, rubric, um, there's different beings have their different roles. the underlying metaphysic and the underlying ontology are different.
¶147underlying metaphysic and the underlying ontology are different. So you can't just pick up demons and swap it for gym. ontology are different. So you can't just pick up demons and swap it for gym. You have to take the other hypothesis, the other theory on its own analytical You have to take the other hypothesis, the other theory on its own analytical merits.
¶148Yeah, I think that was a Yeah, I think that was a really really important point to note. And another thing is that you know I want to also important point to note. And another thing is that you know I want to also talk about if you're doing independent investigation on in talk about if you're doing independent investigation on in the within the unseen realm let's say people from different faiths I mean we cannot presuppose different faiths I mean we cannot presuppose our faiths framework and then impose it on other faiths like obviously either impose it on other faiths like obviously either we do independent work and see if there is some kind of way where we can understand these there is some kind of way where we can understand these beings what their capabilities are or if you're trying to critique a faith at least see capabilities are or if you're trying to critique a faith at least see what the faith the framework the faith itself is using and then try to critique a faith's faith the framework the faith itself is using and then try to critique a faith's uh explanation of a particular phenomena. So uh explanation of a particular phenomena. So keeping that in mind I mean I just want to uh bring in one more video to mean I just want to uh bring in one more video to play.
¶149Now this is more on the demon criteria that generally Christians bring in. I think demon criteria that generally Christians bring in. I think on an in terms of on ground evidence of anthropology of spirit on an in terms of on ground evidence of anthropology of spirit beliefs anthrop and you know even within uhology I think there is some and you know even within uhology I think there is some issues with the demon criteria that uh we see within uh Christianity it criteria that uh we see within uh Christianity it does not map on to what we find as on ground evidence nor does it map on to the Islamic understanding of it map on to the Islamic understanding of uh unseen the unseen so that's one thing I want to note before of uh unseen the unseen so that's one thing I want to note before I go to that video just I will play one video for the audience is one important admission I video just I will play one video for the audience is one important admission I had with uh Dr. to win Vinfred Kodivan who's a scholar in religion and I just asked him about according who's a scholar in religion and I just asked him about according to his perspective his religion the psychology of elaitan or demons perspective his religion the psychology of elaitan or demons and he said that he does not know he's like within the Christian tradition we don't have such a clear Christian tradition we don't have such a clear narrative that we that how we as Muslims have which is on point what is the psychology Muslims have which is on point what is the psychology why why did he started to mislead mankind he actually admitted that mislead mankind he actually admitted that we don't have that so he does not even know so I mean there there again you have again a difference even know so I mean there there again you have again a difference Okay. See, I don't understand Satan.
¶150you have again a difference Okay. See, I don't understand Satan. Now, the Quran has a very clear Yeah. narrative about Yeah. narrative about that there was this gin who would not bow down before Adam even though God who would not bow down before Adam even though God had said, "Hey, this is the crown of creation." And he's smarter than you all.
¶151And there the crown of creation." And he's smarter than you all. And there was then that one who just was too proud, too. than you all. And there was then that one who just was too proud, too. And that's a pretty simple answer.
¶152And by that I don't mean simplistic but pretty by that I don't mean simplistic but pretty straightforward in the Bible. We don't have such a chapter that pretty straightforward in the Bible. We don't have such a chapter that would just tell us the story. But we do not have in the Bible an account of just tell us the story. But we do not have in the Bible an account of the history of that from an Islamic perspective.
¶153You get a psychological aspect. from an Islamic perspective. You get a psychological aspect. You get to know some aspect of the motivation whether whereas in Christianity some aspect of the motivation whether whereas in Christianity it's not that clear which the scholar himself is admitting. So now let's go to the criter.
¶154There's actually a really deep point that I want to draw out from what you just said there that I want to draw out from what you just said there and this is really important. Um you know again speak as if I'm speaking to Joe. You know important. Um you know again speak as if I'm speaking to Joe. You know your theodysies in Catholicism, right?
¶155You've got everywhere where the magisterium theodysies in Catholicism, right? You've got everywhere where the magisterium has not announced that something is definitively part of the creed. You've got wiggle room. definitively part of the creed. You've got wiggle room.
¶156And that wiggle room has been used by you know millennials of of people right has been used by you know millennials of of people right to to invent new ways of trying to close the gaps ways of trying of people right to to invent new ways of trying to close the gaps ways of trying to you know answer the questions that come up and so on um which add so to you know answer the questions that come up and so on um which add so much on top of the underlying religion to the extent where you know the Catholic on top of the underlying religion to the extent where you know the Catholic Church essentially says yeah we're the ones that have the right to decide what Church essentially says yeah we're the ones that have the right to decide what should be added into the religion more or less right um and they try should be added into the religion more or less right um and they try to argue and retrofit to the texts, you know, where where where they can. Um, but, you know, usually where where where they can. Um, but, you know, usually when there's open space, then it just basically comes down to what the church fathers said and so on and so forth. what the church fathers said and so on and so forth. Um, and and you know, if you compare this to to Islam, and so forth.
¶157Um, and and you know, if you compare this to to Islam, scholars absolutely not allowed to just make up their own ad hoc. scholars absolutely not allowed to just make up their own ad hoc. Everyone in Islam is terrified terrified Islam is terrified terrified of attributing something to Allah that he has not attributed to himself. We himself. We cannot say, "Oh, maybe God is this, maybe God did that, maybe, you know, We cannot say, "Oh, maybe God is this, maybe God did that, maybe, you know, we we can't start attributing things and and say, you know, absolutely not." Like, and say, you know, absolutely not." Like, we have to be incredibly careful with the realm of speculation, you know, at all.
¶158with the realm of speculation, you know, at all. And we we only take stuff that's from and at all. And we we only take stuff that's from and uh um you know, between the the Quran and Sunnah, but you know, the only things we will affirm as being true is Quran and Sunnah, but you know, the only things we will affirm as being true is things that are in the Quran and Sunnah directly, right? the thing and and it's critically that directly, right? the thing and and it's critically that means things that are from wah things that are from direct revelation.
¶159Whatever is not from direct revelation revelation. Whatever is not from direct revelation might be wrong. Um so this whole thing about the odysseies and revelation might be wrong. Um so this whole thing about the odysseies and this is important because he uses the odysseies later to explain away the problem of evil right odysseies later to explain away the problem of evil right madeup stories that people said maybe this maybe that about what happens in in that people said maybe this maybe that about what happens in in judgment day and what happens uh you know beyond judgment day. Whereas in Islam, and what happens uh you know beyond judgment day.
¶160Whereas in Islam, the problem of evil is dealt with perfectly by the actual revelations problem of evil is dealt with perfectly by the actual revelations that were actually given at the time of the prophet Muhammad wasallam. Without actually given at the time of the prophet Muhammad wasallam. Without this added church fathers, the Odyssey and so on, there is no parallel legitimate parallel between on, there is no parallel legitimate parallel between people like the church fathers and their role in generating Catholicism as fathers and their role in generating Catholicism as it stands to scholars and their role in Islam in clarifying Catholicism as it stands to scholars and their role in Islam in clarifying what was already revealed in Wahi. big difference. It might was already revealed in Wahi.
¶161big difference. It might not appear so on first glance. So again, Joe, this is something you need to study in first glance. So again, Joe, this is something you need to study in significant detail to be able to appreciate and I hope you do. Right.
¶162Okay. appreciate and I hope you do. Right. Okay. Subhan Allah.
¶163So I'm thinking um I can bring in the demon criteria later because thinking um I can bring in the demon criteria later because there's a lot attached to it uh that you know I'll have to unpack. So probably we could now jump have to unpack. So probably we could now jump into addressing his miraculous claims one by one. addressing his miraculous claims one by one. And this is also going to be very interesting.
¶164So one case that I want to take in interesting. So one case that I want to take in first which is very important is the Marian apparitions which he claims to be one which is very important is the Marian apparitions which he claims to be one very powerful argument for Catholicism and uh I very powerful argument for Catholicism and uh I want to first look at the on ground evidence related to marine aberrations ground evidence related to marine aberrations what they indicate what they don't indicate and this is where I am looking at things from a more broader don't indicate and this is where I am looking at things from a more broader perspective of taking into consideration different cultures that I mean their their culture, the history of their culture from that I mean their their culture, the history of their culture from all around the world and then trying to investigate these events and this would give the world and then trying to investigate these events and this would give me a complete different perspective and inshallah people would enjoy this. So I want inshallah people would enjoy this. So I want to play one video called Heavenly Lights. It's the Fatima book uh with the aliens.
¶165It's called Heavenly Lights. It's the Fatima book uh with the aliens. It's so weird the similarities between Fatima and like the Randles Forest the similarities between Fatima and like the Randles Forest incident from the 1980s or whatever. Um the Belgian the Randles Forest incident from the 1980s or whatever. Um the Belgian wave of UFO sightings from like 1990 to 1991.
¶166And of UFO sightings from like 1990 to 1991. And actually that's a good example. Let me ask you about so you I I assume that you me ask you about so you I I assume that you don't know about the Belgian wave. Have you heard about the Belgian wave? So from Have you heard about the Belgian wave?
¶167So from I think it it took place over the course of like a couple months from like late 1990 the course of like a couple months from like late 1990 into early 1991 um there apparently like late 1990 into early 1991 um there apparently appeared in the sky over Belgium. All of these over Belgium. All of these strange objects um apparently thousands of people All of these strange objects um apparently thousands of people saw them and called into local radio stations and wrote letters to local and called into local radio stations and wrote letters to local radio stations. Like we have hundreds of letters and thousands of logged calls Like we have hundreds of letters and thousands of logged calls about these strange glowing objects. Um, generally thousands of logged calls about these strange glowing objects.
¶168Um, generally described as like shiny. Sometimes they would come in groups of like five or seven of would come in groups of like five or seven of them. Sometimes there was just one. And they would fly in patterns seven of them. Sometimes there was just one.
¶169And they would fly in patterns that aren't physically possible for airplanes to fly in. Like as aren't physically possible for airplanes to fly in. Like as in you could imagine that an airplane is really good at going in one direction like this. But an airplane isn't in one direction like this. But an airplane isn't really good at doing this, stopping and then going backwards and then moving up and then moving down.
¶170And that's what these and then moving up and then moving down. And that's what these things were doing. Um so we have like thousands of eyewitness testimonies. Um so we have like thousands of eyewitness testimonies. And of those thousands of eyewitness testimonies, hundreds of them wrote letters that thousands of eyewitness testimonies, hundreds of them wrote letters that we have and this only occurred uh 30 years ago or whatever.
¶171Well, I guess have and this only occurred uh 30 years ago or whatever. Well, I guess yeah, whatever. It was in 1990. Um, and like so I whatever. It was in 1990.
¶172Um, and like so I was reading about that in the UFO book and I'm like, "Wow, I don't know what book and I'm like, "Wow, I don't know what to make of this, but my reaction is not to to what to make of this, but my reaction is not to to go from," wow, I can't imagine thousands of people lying, like the amount wow, I can't imagine thousands of people lying, like the amount of um like I'm not going to be a conspiracy theorist, right? I think that not going to be a conspiracy theorist, right? I think that those thousands of Belgians in the 90s, I think that they were telling the truth. Um, Belgians in the 90s, I think that they were telling the truth. Um, so I guess that's Is there Yeah.
¶173Is there any photographic or Is there Yeah. Is there any photographic or medical documentation for Mo Man or the aliens? Aliens? the aliens? Aliens?
¶174Yes. Oh my gosh. You should see some of the stuff for the aliens. Um, like some of the stuff for the aliens. Um, like we have photograph evidence.
¶175We have um military radar like we have photograph evidence. We have um military radar like that pings something here and then something here. And it's not something here and then something here. And it's not physically possible for any man-made aircraft to travel from here to here that quickly. Like the man-made aircraft to travel from here to here that quickly.
¶176Like the the documentation for the UFO stuff is insane. I'm insane. I'm I I'm closer on the UFO stuff than I am on a lot of not all but a lot I'm I I'm closer on the UFO stuff than I am on a lot of not all but a lot of miracle stuff. But again, I'm I'm still not there. You know what I mean?
¶177Inflating them. I'm not saying not there. You know what I mean? Inflating them. I'm not saying the apparitions of the Virgin Mary are extraterrestrials.
¶178What I'm saying is that extraterrestrials. What I'm saying is that there there is so much correlation between them that it definitely that there there is so much correlation between them that it definitely warrants uh further study and I have actually talked to like how uh further study and I have actually talked to like how put off and um obviously Jacqu Valet has written about this too. Um there obviously Jacqu Valet has written about this too. Um there are people um in Portugal who've accessed the Fatima this too. Um there are people um in Portugal who've accessed the Fatima archives and wrote about this in the 80s and the '9s um archives and wrote about this in the 80s and the '9s um and you know they have their interpretations and so forth.
¶179So I'm not looking to make a their interpretations and so forth. So I'm not looking to make a conclusion about it. What I'm looking at is utilizing this as a data set. So I basically went utilizing this as a data set. So I basically went through a lot of the uh you know some of the more recent apparitions you know some of the more recent apparitions like in Gabendal um Spain and in um apparitions like in Gabendal um Spain and in um you know Fatima which happened in Portugal in the early 20th century.
¶180And I'm you know happened in Portugal in the early 20th century. And I'm you know what I did at the soul conference was I basically I think a lot of people who are interested in UAP think a lot of people who are interested in UAP but aren't Catholic or aren't you know aware of the apparitions it may have know aware of the apparitions it may have shocked them because you know here we have people levitating we have people you we have people levitating we have people you know experiencing wide reading with this um apparition and you know all the you know experiencing wide reading with this um apparition and you know all the things that happen in UAP events happen in these apparitions things that happen in UAP events happen in these apparitions and so when you start to look at the pattern match it's fairly shocking shocking, but fairly shocking shocking, but the vast majority of apparitions reported over the past two centuries have not even been investigated by the church have not even been investigated by the church at all, and it seems unlikely that they're high on any bishop's priority list. In a sense, though, that silence priority list. In a sense, though, that silence is itself a message. By doing nothing, the church avoids endorsing potentially controversial visions nothing, the church avoids endorsing potentially controversial visions while letting popular devotion quietly continue on its own.
¶181Out of hundreds of Marian apparition continue on its own. Out of hundreds of Marian apparition claims, only a small number have earned official recognition. According to America magazine, in the number have earned official recognition. According to America magazine, in the past century alone, more than 1,500 alleged visions of Mary were reported worldwide, but alleged visions of Mary were reported worldwide, but fewer than 20 have been officially recognized as genuine. The major approved apparitions are wellknown.
¶182major approved apparitions are wellknown. Guadalupe, Lord, Fatima, each with their own extensive church endorsed devotions and even with their own extensive church endorsed devotions and even basilas. Uh hey, so take an organization like MUN. Uh hey, so take an organization like MUN. Uh they would have certain preconceptions for what they might investigate.
¶183preconceptions for what they might investigate. So, uh, you know, if Sasquatch comes up to your campground, they might uh, you know, if Sasquatch comes up to your campground, they might say, "We're not going to investigate this." But then three grays show up to your campground, they might investigate. Yeah.