¶1College football is back. So, Hilton called me, the superstition concier, to make your fan rituals a reality. Need a room to match your lucky number? We got you. Want to make sure our team doesn't wash your lucky jersey.
¶2Ooh, that smells lucky. Hilton's unmatched hospitality can keep up with any superstition. Even a marching band wake up call at 555 and 55 seconds. Hit it. When you need a [music] team that will do whatever it takes on game day, it matters where you stay.
¶3Hilton for the state. >> [music] >> I get so many headaches every month. It could be chronic migraine. 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting 4 hours or more. >> Botox onam toxin A prevents [music] headaches in adults with chronic migraine.
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¶6Ask your doctor. Visit Botoxchronicmigraine.com or call 1-80044 Botox to learn more. >> The Quiet Revival, you must have heard of it. It was a report which gave us a growing sense that something significant was happening in Britain. And then this [music] week, the report was withdrawn.
¶7Earlier this year, just a week before Easter, [music] an announcement shook the UK Christian community. Early last year, the Bible Society published their quiet revival report, [music] making bold claims about growing church attendance, reversing decades of decline in the UK. But in March, Yuggov withdrew their research for the survey, citing flawed [music] data. So, does this Christian revival even exist? The news of the withdrawal became a major talking point on news outlets, podcasts, and social media.
¶8Bible Society survey that made extravagant claims for increases in the number of young Christians were found to be based on totally unreliable statistics and the survey findings had to be scrapped. >> The phrase has entered the lexicon of the church. Bishops have preached about it. Clergy and other church leaders have rejoiced in it. Journalists have written about young people turning to religion, but now it turns out that the data was flawed.
¶9>> The numbers were never real. Yeah, sorry Christians cooked. In early 2025, I had been one of the first to see an early preview of the Bible Society's quiet revival data and its astonishing claims that [music] there had been an enormous leap in churchgoing, especially among Gen Z from 4% in [music] 2018 to 16% in 2024. The claimed upturn [music] was even higher among young men. So, why the withdrawal?
¶10What had gone [music] wrong? Yuggov have recently told us that they made a major mistake in the conduct of the 2024 survey. This mistake means that we can no longer reliably use the results in that report and we are withdrawing it. Now, this is incredibly frustrating and disappointing and I'm sure that you may feel that as [music] I do. This is Paul Williams, CEO of the Bible Society, sharing the news of the withdrawal.
¶11He said the failings lay squarely with Yuggov, who ran the 2024 survey. So, Yuggov have [music] told us that some really important technologies, quality control technologies that are used to filter out uh things like people trying to answer the survey from another country or uh do it more than once uh or rush through or be lazy in the way they answer the questions. Those technologies were not activated for this survey. That was a massive mistake on their part which they've acknowledged. And they've also acknowledged that they failed to pick up that really important mistake even when they were asked by our research team to [music] check the panel for corruption uh or the survey sample.
¶12So they've really apologized and acknowledged their mistake and their wrongdoing. They've taken full responsibility for these mistakes and acknowledged that at all times Bible society has handled the data we've been given um with integrity and skill. Unfortunately, we did not know that the data we were given was corrupted. [music] That's why we're having to withdraw this report. This was not simply another story in the news cycle.
¶13Indeed, much of my own speaking and podcasting in 2025 had been centered around the extraordinary claims of the quiet revival data. While I was surprised by the scale of the statistics, it nevertheless resonated with my own anecdotal sense that the tide of faith was beginning to turn in the west and there was a surprising rebirth of belief in God [music] underway. However, plenty of robust critiques of the data soon began to emerge, too. And by the end of season 2 of this podcast, I was doing my best to interrogate the data as I interviewed both the report's co-author, Rannon Mleier, [music] and key critic, sociologist David Vos. >> The interpretation of their results, I think, unfortunately, [music] is the product of wishful thinking.
¶14What I would say is as someone who commissions um to you gov, we go with them because they are not a lowquality [music] panel. You can hear the full conversation on episode 30 of season 2. In the end, of course, [music] David Vois's concerns about the data were vindicated, and following the withdrawal, he didn't [music] hold back. >> Fact-checking the Bible society is as tiring as fact-checking Donald Trump. The dominant trend continues to be quiet quitting, not quite revival.
¶15>> Other critics, [music] including Christian journalist Tim Wyatt, also questioned the Bible Society's [music] approach. >> I think it was an error for the Bible Society to tie their entire organizational credibility to this campaign. Now, it was a superb piece of branding. You know, Quiet Revival has entered the lexicon [music] incredibly quickly. Fair play to them.
¶16But it it now leaves them high and dry as an as an organization. [music] For their part, Bible Society have insisted that they dealt fairly and [music] responsibly with the data they were presented with. >> Why have you found it necessary to be so robust and [music] resistant in the face of criticism? This is journalist Ruth Peacock of the Religion Media Center in a robust question and answer session with Bible [music] Society CEO Paul Williams. >> Well, I don't think we are being robust and resistant, but I challenge you to see where we've really tried to promote this report.
¶17>> Just curious as to why there wasn't deeper curiosity at the Bible Society. Did you think of having it peer-reviewed, asking another company to test it because it was so different to what other people were finding? >> We did in fact have um quite a lot of the analysis checked with another uh company privately to check our analysis of the findings and I think Sir John's on this call, but John Curtis has been uh generous on a number of occasions to say that we handle the data we were given um accurately and fairly. >> Are you embarrassed? No.
¶18As the dust began to settle, I was [music] approached for comment as someone who had seen the quiet revival research resonate with my own sense of a rebirth. [music] Holy smoke is the religion podcast of the spectator hosted by Damian Thompson, a skeptic of the [music] research from the outset. Look, I have to be honest, it didn't come as a surprise to me when the survey came out. I took one look at it and I thought, "This is completely preposterous. I don't believe a word [music] of it because the claims that were being made were so preposterous.
¶19>> I was invited onto the show to give [music] my perspective. >> Justin, welcome to Holy Smoke. >> Thank you, Damian. It's lovely to be with you. >> You recently wrote an article in Unheard in which you tried to make sense of this confusing situation.
¶20>> So, can I begin by just asking a simple question? Was there ever a quiet revival? I think perhaps the fact that the phrase revival was ever used was perhaps a mistake because quiet or not, I don't think even what the statistics were suggesting was what you might call a revival and certainly wasn't being felt on the ground in that way. Although something was being felt on the ground. I I was very encouraged by these statistics even though they were very surprising and and seemed sort of obviously out of step with the general pattern of what we've seen in terms of religiosity and church going in decline for for many decades in the UK and and elsewhere.
¶21However, they did match what I was sensing anecdotally and was picking up from lots of church leaders and lots of stories which I'd brought together in a book and a podcast series called the surprising rebirth of belief in God that there was this new awakening this new openness at least to the value of faith and and I was hearing about a lot of young people especially these young men turning up at the doors of church for the first time. So the statistics made sense of what I was hearing and to that extent I felt perhaps there was something in this. it wasn't just a kind of really fluke result or whatever by the Bible society. Having said that, over the following year, lots of people came out to sort of challenge those statistics. Key critics like David Vos who's a sociologist who said, "Look, this just doesn't add up with actual attendance figures from churches themselves.
¶22It doesn't obviously when the British social attitude survey that you just referenced came out that seemed to point in the opposite direction again and there were concerns being raised about the nature of the yuggov polling itself. This opt-in format does open itself up, critics were saying, to a certain amount of abuse. People sort of trying to, you know, essentially do it because they want to get the rewards that are on offer and that kind of thing. That can lead to not great data. Anyway, Bible Society continued to stand by the figures.
¶23I went back to them a number of times and they said, "No, we've we've asked Yuggov. We've gone back to them. They've given us reassurance. This is quality data." Yuggov, you know, reputable surveying company. They do lots of surveys for lots of different organizations, including some of the organizations that were being critical, you know, like Humanist UK.
¶24And then, yeah, just last week, as of this recording, suddenly a huge U-turn. We're withdrawing this report and the statistics it's based on. And part of my disappointment, if I'm honest, Damian, is is both that obviously this story went far and wide. Quiet revival became part of the lexicon. And it's very difficult now to to pull that back in once it's out there.
¶25It's hard to kind of rewind that, if you like. but also because sadly I think now the story will be well there's nothing happening and I think that's a an error in the opposite direction because yes there's no quiet revival it would appear or at least the data doesn't support that idea but it doesn't mean there's nothing happening [music] and that's where I'm at with it [music] Damian Thompson was not alone in his skepticism just a month before the quiet revival [music] withdrawal I had sat on a panel discussion opposite it New York Times religion columnist Lauren Jackson who expressed her [music] own misgivings about the report. What I see as a journalist is there is an eagerness among um religious people in particular, Christians in particular, evangelical Christians in particular to find a way find data that speaks to what they are seeing anecdotally. But I guess as a journalist, I mean, it's our job to be skeptical, but it's our job to urge people to kind of like really question that data and and think really closely about it. I hear all the time from evangelical Christians about the quiet revival survey.
¶26It hasn't borne out and we're not seeing that level of uptick. We just we can say that definitively that that survey we think was flawed. It does not mean something isn't happening. Something is happening. We're we're hearing that anecdotally constantly and Justin and [music] I can both speak to that.
¶27I live in London and I've done a lot of reporting on British Christianity. There is a shift happening. [music] We just need to be careful about um overstating that. >> We do indeed need to be careful about overstating [music] things. The quiet revival report will live in many memories for a long time as a salutary tale.
¶28Lots of people, me included, quite [music] naturally wanted this story to be true. But perhaps that meant too much significance was placed on one outlier [music] survey. A healthy portion of Humble Pie has deservedly been consumed in recent months, [music] and the critics have arguably been vindicated. And even if the data were accurate, it would still not represent in any meaningful sense a revival. [music] This this report itself shows that there is an ongoing reduction in the [music] number of people in the population as a whole who say that they're Christian, who have Christian beliefs and so on and so forth.
¶29It is [music] not a revival. [music] But there is an equal and opposite error. We can fall into the conclusion that nothing at all is happening. [music] While the phrase revival was always going to be contested, does the withdrawal of [music] one flawed survey mean that the concept of a renewal, an awakening, [music] or even a rebirth of Christian faith is dead in the water, [music] as some critics have been keen to proclaim? I don't think so.
¶30As Lauren Jackson herself put it, something [music] is happening. And this isn't just wishful thinking. In today's show, having asked what went wrong with the Quiet Revival, we'll also be exploring 10, yes, count [music] them, 10 reasons why I believe the rebirth is still very much underway and [music] still changing lives. >> Now, today I just want to say that I have been saved by the Lord Jesus Christ, and it is the best thing that has ever happened to me. >> [music] [music] >> I'm Justin Bryley and in this podcast series, I'm bringing you the inside account [music] of why a meaning crisis in the modern world and the search for a better story about life are leading many 21st century people [music] to reconsider Christian faith.
¶31Welcome back to the third season of The Surprising Rebirth of Belief in God. Episode 1, Not Dead [music] Yet. 10 reasons the rebirth is alive and well. [music] College football is back. So, Hilton called to me, the superstition concier to make your fan rituals a reality.
¶32Need a room to match your lucky number? We got you. Want to make sure our team doesn't wash your lucky jersey. Ooh, that smells lucky. Hilton's unmatched hospitality can keep up with any superstition.
¶33Even a marching band wakeup call at 555 and 55 seconds. Hit it. [music] When you need a team that will do whatever it takes on game day, it matters where you stay. Hilton for the state. [music] Something extraordinary happened in France in the year 2025.
¶34More than 10,300 adults were baptized into the Catholic [music] Church, the highest number recorded in the past 20 years. This is a news interview with a Parisian priest following a historic number of adult converts joining the Catholic Church in [music] France last year. This unprecedented surge is even more striking because of the demographic of the new converts, mostly Gen Z adults between 18 and 25 who did not grow up in practicing families. According to the French Institute of Public Opinion, more than 50% of the population in France identifies as atheists. >> These are genuine conversions, not something superficial.
¶35And I ask myself, where does this come from? Why so many? Are we doing things better? The only explanation I can find fits in two words, the Holy Spirit. Now, the church in France faces a double challenge.
¶36On the one hand, integrating catechumans into already existing communities, and on the other, ensuring their faith takes root and does not fade after the initial enthusiasm. The new challenges are immense, but at the same time, a great joy, says Father Durville, one that opens the door to a new horizon and possibly a new era for the Catholic Church in France. [music] The number of converts in France was eclipsed once again [music] this year as over 21,000 adults, the majority of them aged 18 to 25, were baptized into the Catholic Church at the 2026 [music] Easter Vigil. Ironically, the very same day that the quiet revival report was retracted, Lef Figuro, one of France's leading newspapers, published a full page article on the continuing growth of [music] demand for adult baptism. So, this is the first piece of statistical evidence I want to present [music] that a rebirth is still very much on the cards in Europe, even in a famously secular [music] country like France.
¶37Now, it's worth giving a couple of caveats here. Even these unprecedented numbers of young adults joining [music] the church are still some way from reversing the overall decline of the Catholic Church in France as many aging congregations continue to shrink and of course the number of people coming forward for adult baptism is a reflection of the fact that in recent decades fewer families have chosen to baptize children as infants. Nevertheless, for 3 years running, France has seen the largest number of adult Catholic converts in living memory, and Gen Z are at the forefront of this [music] resurgence. I spoke to Catholic convert Tony Wilson, who lives in France, about his experience charting the growth of a Catholic student mission [music] in the city of Tulus. He said that it's not hard to see the attraction for young [music] people made anxious by turbulent times, distraction, doom scrolling, [music] and a lack of identity.
¶38And I think that's where where something like the Catholic Church is incredibly attractive because it stands on a 2,000-year tradition, and it feels like it's not going anywhere quickly. Uh, and it's going to be there for them next year, and it's going to look pretty much like it looks this year. Tony told me about the increasing numbers of young people turning up for services. >> It's a it's just a fairly ordinary mass but done with extreme reverence. Uh with a cathedral of 2,000 people, it's quite impressive.
¶39The other thing was there's an attentiveness from the students. I was looking around and they are attentive at each moment and when when that moment comes of consecration, everyone drop to their knees. You know, this was a moment where we're in the presence of the king, you know, and we give the king the respect he's due. [music] You know, everyone knew what they were about, what they were doing, why they were doing it. Um, and it was [music] it was one of those moments of, you know, you just had to sit up and take notice.
¶40[music] >> But the 2026 Catholic [music] boom isn't just being felt in France. Come to church with me and 300 other Gen Z Catholics. >> Everyone's talking about [music] it. Young adults are re-engaging in the faith. >> Congregations across the country reporting 20somes attending [music] church more regularly than millennials, Gen X or baby boomers.
¶41>> The Catholic Church in the US welcomed thousands of new members this Easter and dasceses across the country both big and small [music] have reported record numbers of converts receiving their sacraments. And it's not just the USA [music] either. Young Brits are becoming Catholic. This is podcast host Michael Nolles reporting on [music] the UK. This this according to reporting from the Telegraph.
¶42This Easter thousands of people are going to be received into the Catholic Church and substantial numbers of them are under the age of 35. They're growing because of conversions, too. Archbishop Marco Tul of Cardiff says, "When you meet them and hear their stories, they say they are looking for clarity and stability. They are attracted to the Catholic Church's strong sense of identity and clarity around the teachings of Jesus." This year, multiple UK Catholic dascese saw a rise in converts. The Catholic Dascese of Westminster had its largest intake for 15 years as 800 adults from more than 100 parishes presented themselves for election.
¶43Pier Paulo Finaldi of the Catholic Truth Society describes what he's been seeing on the ground. Last year, for example, in my parish, 12 people, I think, were um uh baptized or or came into the church. And of those 12, I think 10 told their story. And part of that story was was the [music] sort of pipeline that went, you know, Jordan Peterson to Bishop Baron to [music] looking for their local parish. It's a familiar story in which online influencers are playing a significant part in the new interest in Catholicism.
¶44[music] At the end of the 19th century, the Catholic influences of their day, GK Chesterton and the convert Cardinal John Henry Newman, ushered in a so-called second spring for the UK [music] Catholic Church. >> I suppose the question I'd like to to end on is uh are we witnessing a third spring? >> This is Finaldi speaking to Dr. Hannah Vaughn Spruce, director of Divine Renovation [music] UK. um over the last year, the stories that I've heard in parishes, the numbers of people um being baptized, numbers in RCIA increasing, it's very small at the moment, but if it's an indication of something that's happening um in the culture that people are responding to and they're looking for something that's more stable, more real, more enduring than um what they seem to be getting um in the in the wider culture.
¶45Um, I have great hope for what this could mean for the for the future, for the coming years. Yeah. [music] So, here I present my second piece of evidence that the rebirth is far from [music] dead. Parts of the church are growing in the UK, too. And it's not just the Catholics.
¶46The Orthodox Church has seen significant [music] spikes among its parishes, both from immigration and conversion. Protestant denominations are [music] also showing signs of growth. Newer black Pentecostal church networks continue to be on the [music] front end of that growth. But there have also been surprising stories from historic denominations that have until now [music] seen a steady stream of church closures. We're a faithful historic movement slowly but inexraably declining.
¶47The [music] embers are fading and the fire looks like it's nearly done. This is General Secretary Lynn [music] Green sounding initially at least downbeat at last year's Baptist Assembly. Despite the fire dying down, [music] we have still been putting wood on the fire. But even as the main [music] fire died down, the flames were still sufficient to ignite the new wood and rekindle that fire once more. Did you know?
¶48[music] I'm going to tell you. Did you know that 57% of our churches have reported net [music] growth in attendance between 2022 and 2024? But the best thing of all [music] that we can me measure is baptisms. We had over 800 more baptisms than the previous [music] year. It is the highest figure for baptisms in [music] a decade.
¶49>> [music] >> We wait to see what the future holds for the Baptists as they report a [music] rekindling of the fire. The Church of England has also been in steep decline since the 1960s. Then came COVID in 2020, decimating churchgoing altogether as [music] churches closed to in-person gatherings for an extended period. Many of them never reopened. [music] But since then, something unprecedented has happened.
¶50The Church of England has been growing. In [snorts] the first two or three years since CO, that [music] was perhaps unsurprising. A bounce back from a very low EB in 2020. But the Church of England recently posted a fifth consecutive [music] year of growth. Still not yet back to precoid levels, but a change that's starting to look more like a trend [music] than a mere bounceback.
¶51Indeed, many Anglican churches have been reporting unprecedented [music] numbers at the high watermark services of their liturggical year, Christmas and Easter. So, there are signs of an upswing in some denominations in [music] the UK. But my third piece of evidence hails from more northerly clims, not so secular Scandinavia. [music] Several Scandinavian countries have been reporting an official [music] uptick in the number of young people, especially young men, beginning to attend church. Norway has seen the number of participants in church services increase, [music] especially among young people.
¶52In Finland, a remarkable uptick in belief in [music] God has also been underway. In 2019, only 35% [music] of girls and 36% of boys said they believe in God. By 2024, that had shot up to 56 and [music] 67% respectively. And those statistics also hold specifically across Christian beliefs such [music] as the resurrection of Jesus. In Denmark, a recent survey likewise showed an [music] increase in religious belief and church attendance, especially among young men.
¶53Then there's the Church of Sweden. [music] After generations of decline in the national church, they had a record year in 2025. I spoke to journalist Robert Tenberg about what's happening in his home country. We have been uh in a place of like a lot of people doesn't really know what the church is about anymore. uh and like well their grandmothers had their place in church but they left it and and God is is is a non-existing concept but something is really happening and uh the Swedish church which is which is the the biggest church in Sweden as well as a lot of the the more minor churches like the Catholic church and and the uh Orthodox church uh is seeing a grow now and and I I could probably say that a lot of the Orthodox church is is due to there has been a large migration of course to to Sweden and from the countries where Eastern Orthodoxy is the major religion but we also see Swedish converts to these um these older churches uh but as well to the Swedish former state church and so we were setting a new record this year with 18,783 people choosing to join the church by free will.
¶54So actually in those numbers we are not counting those who are being baptized in the when they are confirmed. So we're seeing a a quite large increase. Last year we had the last record and it was like 13,000 people doing this active choice. So something is going on in Sweden in particular and I know that uh we've heard [music] um news from from our neighbors in Norway and Finland as well and and also Denmark that there is something happening also in the most secular country in the world. There is a reenchantment of some sort.
¶55>> [music] >> We may for obvious reasons want to avoid talk of a quote unquote revival, but re-enchantment, renewal, rebirth, those terms perhaps do capture what is happening across these first three examples of data showing signs of growth in a variety of church streams in France, the UK, and [music] Scandinavia. But what about the USA? Here's my rebirth example number four. that yes, something is happening in the states too. Now, [music] despite a lot of news coverage, claims of a religious resurgence among [music] US Gen Z have been contested, not least by statistician Ryan Burge.
¶56As he told me at the end of our last season, the overall statistics simply don't bear out talk of a [music] revival. So, like it sounds great to say, "Oh, there's a revival h my job is to walk in with the cold water and say, "Okay, let me like like get the whiteboard out and the markers and let me just like do the math for you on the board." The math just does not math the more you think about the math on this. But then in March this year, some interesting data popped up. The proportion of nuns in the USA, [music] those who claim no religious affiliation, fell for the third year in a row. Burge was one of the first to speak to the [music] statistics and says that although the decrease is significant, he doesn't think it'll be sustained.
¶57That [music] doesn't change the macrolevel problem, which is that every generation is less religious than the prior generation. That's the problem we're facing. That's why there's no revival happening in America. Unless you see massive amounts of Gen Z come back to church. Not like one story from this university and one story over here.
¶58We're talking all across America, you would need to see it. And we're not seeing it right now. >> Burj says that he expects [music] the overall number of nuns to rise again, but that it will probably [music] plateau and won't go beyond 45% of the population. But then [music] another interesting survey dropped from Gallup. The share of young men in the US [music] who said that religion was very important to them jumped from 28% to 42% [music] in just 2 years.
¶59Was this another sign that religiosity was making a comeback [music] in the USA? Again, speaking on BBC Global, Burge says he isn't confident it'll translate into [music] meaningful religious practice. The religious importance is a weird question because it's sort of like what we call like a vibes question like how do you feel about something and people saying that they think religion is important to them might mean they like what it teaches about gender or sexuality or gender roles or you know pick right of the above things but me feeling like something important and me actually getting up on Sunday morning and putting my butt in the seat of a pew is two totally different things you know we talk about the vibe session right now the economy feels bad religion feels good right now for whatever reason it's having a moment as the children say and but I don't think that's actually translating to like a meaningful change in like what the average church the average pastor is experiencing [music] I have valued [music] Ryan Burg's sanguin analysis of current trends in the USA he's a muchneeded counterpoint to those [music] whose optimism perhaps overtakes how the data plays out in reality [music] but at the risk of speaking Looking outside of my area of expertise, I'm not a data analyst. It still seems to me that there is something going on here. The secularization thesis that the West is heading towards the inevitable death of religion has at the very least been challenged by these recent stats.
¶60A [music] downturn in the nuns followed by a plateau is not what the secularists anticipated. Likewise, the jump in young men [music] identifying as religious, that's also coming from somewhere, and I suspect it stems from that same dissatisfaction with the empty promises of a post-Christian world and the search for meaning that we've already heard about. Whether it translates into religious commitment is of course [music] a separate question. But that still means there's an openness and an opportunity for the church to engage a generation who still want to be religious even if they struggle to know how. So on to reason number five why the rebirth [music] isn't dead.
¶61Bible sales. >> Bible sales last year reached their highest point since records [music] began. Some experts say uh wars, AI stealing our jobs, and a general feeling of worry [music] about the future is leading people to turn to God. >> UK Bible sales reached 6.3 million pounds in 2025, the highest annual figure on record, [music] more than doubling in value since 2019. The data shows UK Bible sales increase here it is 134% in value and 106% [music] in volume over that period.
¶62That that is awesome. [music] That's right. Bible sales have been soaring in both the USA [music] and the UK against an otherwise stagnant book market. UK Bible sales are at an historic high, more than doubling from 2.69 million to over 6.3 million between 2019 to [music] 2025. I've spoken to a number of people involved in Christian publishing and Bible sales, and they say this increase isn't coming from any particular marketing strategy.
¶63It's coming from [music] everyday people walking into a bookshop or going online to buy a Bible often for the first time. [music] And it's often young people. I asked Andrew Olton, creator of the Bible course, what we lose [music] when we don't have the story of scripture in our culture. One of the things we lose is that individuals no longer live their lives conscious that they're part of a larger story. And I think that's scary.
¶64Life is fragile. Life is vulnerable. The world is geopolitically and mental health-wise is vulnerable. And if you are not feeling my life is attached, tethered to something immovably greater than myself, well, is that not an explanation in part for so much of the anxiety that we experience in our culture? And I think this is where the Bible just has this vital role to play.
¶65Just just one little story that comes to mind as I was saying this as fresh as just this last weekend. And I was speaking at another event and after I'd finished speaking at the young man behind me uh I got talking to him and I asked him how he'd come to be here. He was with a friend and he said um to cut a long story short he said basically uh two weeks before this he was sat on top of a quarry contemplating jumping off. He'd gone to the top of the quarry to end his life. And I asked him why and he said all of the things I suppose that we're so concerned about.
¶66He's from a broken home. Uh he felt no love there. He was from a sort of an atheist family. He felt no sense of meaning there. And his life just he said, "My life was not working.
¶67I had nothing. I've got no purpose." And as he was sitting on top of the quarry, uh he said, "And then and he said, "And then I and then I heard him." And I said, "What did you hear?" And he said, "I heard a voice." And he said, "This is not how your story ends." So he walked down from the quarry. He went to Whmith and bought a Bible. And uh he said, "I started reading it." And I said, "Where where did you start reading it?" And he just looked at me like I was stupid. He said, "Well, the first page, cuz that's ob, you know, this is just another reminder, isn't it?
¶68There's no, it's not obvious that you would start anywhere else with the Bible. You know, you start a book on the first page." So, he starts in Genesis. And he and he said this little phrase. He said, "Things have just been getting a bit better ever since I started reading the Bible." Oh. >> And this was the first Christian event he'd ever been to.
¶69And I had the privilege of just kneeling down with him. and he gave his life to the Lord and just felt he said, "I feel [music] like this weight has lifted." >> Stories and surveys [music] are one thing, but it's hard to argue with cold, hard commercial metrics. No one can deny that there's [music] been an extraordinary rise in Bible sales recently, and that must be coming from somewhere. But as we'll see, [music] it's not the only commercial indicator that the rebirth is still very much underway. [music] College football is back.
¶70So, Hilton called me, the superstition concier, to make your fan rituals a reality. Need a room to match your lucky number? We got you. Want to make sure our team doesn't wash your lucky jersey? Ooh, that smells lucky.
¶71Hilton's unmatched hospitality can keep up with any superstition. Even a marching band wake up call at 555 and 55 seconds. Hit it. When you need a team [music] that will do whatever it takes on game day, it matters where you stay. Hilton for the sake.
¶72>> I get so many headaches every month. It could be chronic migraine. 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting 4 hours or more. >> Botox onam toxin A prevents headaches [music] in adults with chronic migraine. It's not for those who have 14 or fewer headache days a month.
¶73Prescription Botox is injected by your doctor. Effects of Botox may spread [music] hours to weeks after injection, causing serious symptoms. Alert your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, [music] eye problems, or muscle weakness can be signs of a life-threatening condition. Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk. Side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection sight pain, fatigue, and [music] headache.
¶74Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms, and dizziness. Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection. Tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions including ALS luger's disease, [music] mythenia gravis or Lambertan syndrome and medications including bachelinam toxins as these may increase [music] the risk of serious side effects. Why wait? Ask your doctor.
¶75Visit botoxchronicmigraine.com or call [music] 1-80044tox to learn more. The best part of waking up, a full cup of folders coffee and music on full blast. >> [music] >> Wake up every moment I wake [music] up. Best [music] part of waking up is folders in your cup. >> Shop Folders K Cup pods and more at your nearest retailer.
¶76>> Jesus. [music] Forest Frank has been taking the streaming charts by storm in recent years. In the summer of 2025, he became the number one artist on YouTube music, racking up over 145 million monthly [music] listeners. On Spotify, his big hits each have over 200 million streams each. But Forest is just one of a range of Christian artists who are part of a huge surge in Christian music streaming.
¶77This is my sixth data point for why a rebirth really does seem to be underway. When the Gospel Coalition's senior editor, Brett McCracken, saw Billboard magazine profile the heavenly rise of Christian music with a 60% increase in streaming over the past 4 years. He decided to investigate. He told me what he had been noticing. the streaming data uh was showing Christian music was one of the fastest rising genres at the uh the first half of 2024 I believe.
¶78Um so that's when it really kind of you know kind of started to register as like this is a thing that I need to like think about and write about. I I had been observing anecdotally for a number of years um that it seemed like there was more quality Christian music coming out. Um, I would talk to people about Christian music more often. There was a time, uh, you know, maybe 10, 20 years ago where a lot of Christians of my age, generation just didn't really talk about Christian music. We didn't listen to it.
¶79It was embarrassing. It wasn't it wasn't really a thing that we uh felt all that confident in or comfortable talking about. But I've noticed in recent years that whether I'm at my small group with my church talking to younger people than me, Gen Z, they'll bring up like uh like Forest Frank. The first time I heard about Forest Frank was a couple years ago in my small group when some like 20some guys in my group were like talking about Forest Frank. I was like, who's that?
¶80Um and I'm someone who covers music, Christian music fairly closely. Uh, and so when when you sort of see that organic kind of discourse around certain Christian artists, that buzz, if you will, um, it's worth paying attention to. So I was noticing it and then that Billboard article really um, sealed the the deal in terms of this is a real thing that's happening. [music] Popular YouTuber Rlan KD told me about the change he's seen in the Christian music scene. There definitely [music] seems to be a renaissance of sorts with regarding the Christian art where you have people who are have been Christian privately but are mainstream.
¶81So artists like Jake who has a massive song called Golden Hour. He comes out there's a song of Forest Frank. Forest Frank is selling out arenas now, you know, and you have guys like Indie Tribe and John Keith and No Big Deal. There's a lot of really good Christian hip-hop music that is starting to permeate and be so big and so good that it's crossing over and it's mainstream. >> So, Bible sales are up, Christian music streaming is up, and according to the stats, it's Gen Z, those aged 14 to 29, who are leading the change in both cases.
¶82I've definitely noticed a change in people speaking about God. I see it a lot on Tik Tok now. I see, you know, young preachers on the street. I cannot tell you how many young adults walk into these doors on their own. >> I'm seeing people that look like me, that dress like me, that are kind of similar ages to me, and you're just like, I wasn't always seeing this before.
¶83This Sky News report on the renewed [music] interest in faith among young people features Love Island star Matilda Draper talking about her own baptism video which went viral [music] on Tik Tok. >> And on my baptism video, the same thing happened. I got so many messages just like asking about it, wanting to know more, wanting to know how that happened. For me, I think that's why it's so important for, you know, anyone with a following. If you can do that, I think that's such an amazing thing to do.
¶84>> This brings us to my seventh [music] point of evidence. Notwithstanding the flawed data from the quiet revival report, [music] there are plenty of other data sets pointing towards a new religious openness among [music] Gen Z. It's not just that there are more Christian influencers appearing on Tik Tok. Last year, a survey by the Times newspaper revealed Genenzi were half as likely to be atheists as their parents or grandparents. And [music] another 2025 UK survey showed that 37% of 18 [music] to 24 year olds now say they believe in God, compared with just 16% in 2021.
¶85One London congregation [music] that's been seeing a phenomenal surge in Gen Z age attendees and converts is Saint at [music] St. John's Hackne. I sat down with the church's director, Al Gordon, to talk about what he's seen happening. Give us a little flavor of what's been you've been seeing happen there in the last few years. Um because I know that there's been some some pretty interesting kind of upturn, let's say, of young people especially taking an interest in faith and particularly sort of you've been seeing some some remarkable sort of allight prayer and worship gatherings.
¶86So, so tell us a little bit where where where that's all come from, Al. Oh, I mean, thank you for asking. Um, 3 years ago, I was at a point post pandemic where like many of us just quite tired and quite sort of um not not on the point of crisis, but just like, you know, Lord, we need you to come because we can't do this in our own strength. We can't, you know, we live in an area where less than 1% attend an Anglican church. Um, you know, how do we how do we serve the community we're in?
¶87It's very poor. It's very creative. It's it's all the things. The history of the church of course is the history of revival and we have a very secular western you know lens on that the secular lie has not satisfied the soul of of a generation. So there's a rising sense of hunger and thirst and at the same time this desire of like actually only god can do this.
¶88We need a sovereign move of god for the word of god to be preached and people to come to know him. We need him to move by his power and his spirit. Um [snorts] asbury was a key part for our journey. I was privileged to be there. Like it's really easy to lead a church in your own strength and be driven and try and you out of noble ambition, you know, but I think you have to get to a point where you say actually I'm writing my resignation letter as a leader and I'm going to let God run the church now.
¶89So I came back and did that. I said to the church on Sunday having experienced what I saw at Asbury's sense of the love and the power and the holiness and the nearness of God. I said to the church, you know, I'm done. I you I resign as your vicar. You know, Jesus, I need Jesus to lead the church now.
¶90But we began to see God move remarkably. And there were a few things. One is the unity. You've mentioned the joint prayer gatherings. We have like prayer meetings at churches.
¶91What we do maybe 50, maybe hundred would turn up on a good day. And we put all our prayer meetings together. We're like, we'll put coffee and tea out for 200. Maybe 150. Maybe 200 is too much.
¶92We open the doors that day and there was hundreds and hundreds of people, young people queuing down the road. And you know, we've got one coming up in uh next week, next Friday. And this one, you know, we've already got over 3,000 people booked in to pray into the night. We're having to lay a second one on because the first one's reached capacity. So, there's definitely >> the theme of this, and I'll come into Lamb with this.
¶93I feel like we've been in a season where God has been preparing his church for revival. We're not in revival yet, and we mustn't get complacent and start to say, "Oh, you know, it's revival." It is not revival. We'll know when we're in revival. We may not know till we get to heaven what God has done. >> But right now the church like Mark Mark chapter 1, we need to humble ourselves and and and repent and get right and encounter Jesus.
¶94Um you know that that great John the Baptist heralding forerunning prepare the way for the Lord. That's the season we're in right now. I think as a church prayer meetings have been fire. We're learning how to pray. And I think you know Matthew Henry says this when God intends great mercy for his people he sets them praying.
¶95So I think that the next 20, 30 years of the church in the UK [music] are going to be phenomenally exciting. You can hear the full interview with Al Gordon on the Re-enchanting podcast. At number eight in my countdown of the signs of a surprising rebirth of belief in God in our culture is football. Yes, you heard me right. Now, while sport and football especially is often revered in an almost quasi religious way anyway by its followers, there's no doubt that the faith of many of the Premier League's top players has become more and more apparent in recent years.
¶96>> This is my my Bible. Um, it was a gift [music] from my dad. It's really special to me. I try to read it every night before I go to bed. I've learned a lot from it.
¶97Still reading it all the time. So, yeah, it's important for me. Religion is a big part of my life. I would say I'm strong believer in God. Reading this Bible all the time helps me to learn more and more about God.
¶98I normally memorize the messages and what it means and try and take it into my life. This is Bukayo Saka, one of the stars of England's World Cup campaign talking about his own faith. But he's far from alone. He's a member of Arsenal's so-called Bible Brothers, a set of young players who encourage each other with scripture, prayer, and are willing to talk openly about their faith. It includes Eber Ezar, who's become well known for his postgoal celebrations, holding his fingers aloft in the sign of a cross.
¶99But what is faith? Cuz I know faith isn't you praying like, "Lord, let me not Meg Rodri today." Is what is actually faith? Explain to them what it does. This is Eza being interviewed [music] by Sky Sports. >> Oh, shoot.
¶100Um, I would say faith is confidence in what you have not yet seen and an assurance that it's going to come. That faith is a foundation. It's a it's a pillar [music] for me in my life. Um, of course, because of my Christian background and how I've grown up. So mainstream sports channels [music] are featuring players talking about their faith.
¶101And meanwhile, Thanksgiving to God has become so ubiquitous in post-match interviews that [music] the broadcasters are barely trying to edit it out any longer. From the outspoken faith of Mark Gaye and [music] Antoine Semeno at Manchester City to Ben Ganondoke at AFC Bournemouth to this moment when former Crystal Palace captain Joel Ward gave a changing room speech [music] after their FA Cup win. I would argue that some of the most unlikely but effective evangelists of our generation are playing for Premier League teams. Something that's I hold dearly is obviously my faith. Um and in Jeremiah 29:11 it talks about how God has a plan and a purpose for our lives.
¶102And you may not believe, you may not look at scripture or you may not have that, but personally I believe that everyone here is here for a reason. Look [music] out for a deep dive into the rebirth in football in our next documentary podcast. Number nine in our signs of a surprising rebirth is the [music] growth of alpha. People no longer go to church because they feel they should. Quite the reverse.
¶103People are quite embarrassed about saying that they go to church. But what it means is that the people who are coming to church come because they have a genuine faith that their faith is alive that they care passionately about Jesus and that's why they have the courage to enter a church door. This is Nikki Gumble, the former director of Holy Trinity Brmpton in London, talking about the fact that churchgoing hasn't been the norm in our culture for a long time. But why, despite that, the Alpha course, an introduction to Christian faith that he helped to pioneer in the 1990s, has continued to flourish in recent years and that's been growing. uh the number of young people and we've seen it um on Alpha for many years um hundreds of young people average age on Alfred at HTB so we're about 27 most of the guests aged between 18 and and 35 um and hundreds of people coming we're now on our 104th alpha small group in a row and we had hundreds of people each time mainly young people coming to church hb 184 churches and nearly all of those are seeing the same thing.
¶104They start with alpha big front door pe young people coming into church. So we've [music] been seeing it in 2024. Alpha courses were attended by over 2 million participants globally, its largest ever number. But that was topped again [music] in 2025 as 2.8 million people took part in the course, a 30% increase on the [music] previous year. Alpha's evangelistic model sees Christians invite their non-Christian friends to a 10-week [music] course involving sharing food, watching a talk, and time for discussion.
¶105According to Alpha's [music] annual report, over half of guests who have not made a personal commitment to Jesus Christ before the [music] course said they had made one afterwards. The growing popularity and success [music] of the long-running Alpha course is another sign that a rebirth is underway. Nikki Gumble explains why [music] the course seems to be drawing even more people today and why they seem so open compared to previous generations. [music] 10 years ago, people would always come spouting D Richard Dawkins. Um, now you'd never get that.
¶106There's always an openness to spirituality. I think atheism's gone pretty much amongst young people. And finally, number 10 in our countdown of reasons why the rebirth is not dead, [music] deceased, pushing up the daisies, or shuffling off this mortal coil anytime soon. And this time, it's not a statistic or survey I'm going to point to, but rather the prepundonderance [music] of the many stories being shared of people who, to their own great surprise, are finding God. and I have since writing the book um become Christian.
¶107>> This is female rights advocate [music] and journalist Louise Perry. When I interviewed her for this podcast 2 years ago about her best-selling book, [music] The Case Against the Sexual Revolution, she told me she was attracted to Christian faith, but that her disenchanted brain struggled [music] to accept its supernatural claims. In this recent interview, she [music] explains what's changed. I I was for a long time persuaded that Christianity is what I like to call sociologically true in the [music] sense that Christian societies tend to flourish and um obeying [music] Christian um directives tends to like be the right choice in terms of the you know like the fact that marriage is monogous marriage is on net really good for individuals [music] and societies and for children is one example right and I have a chapter in the book called called marriage is good on this theme that doesn't necessarily mean that Christianity is supernaturally true, but if it were supernaturally true, you would expect [music] it to be sociologically true. And observing quite how sociologically true it is was very persuasive.
¶108>> Another well-known sociologist, Charles Murray, created a stir recently when he announced his conversion to Christianity. I was a standard intellectual agnostic from the time I went to college until my late 40s. Well, I actually did have a sort of road to Damascus moment, but it wasn't spiritual. It was empirical. And it was when I read this little slim book called just six numbers by Martin Ree.
¶109And so I explored the ways that science, whether it's cosmology or the consciousness uh bears on religious issues. I started looking into the historicity issues in Christianity. I'm not saying that's the best way to do it, but for me that's the only game in town. Murray charts his intellectual journey to Christian faith in his 2025 book, Taking Religion Seriously, and says that he's noticing more of his peers [music] doing just that. the there's a whole spate of public pronouncements by unlikely people about um their convergence saying the intellectual atmosphere surrounding religion is uh is changing but at the same time the statistics on the numbers of people attending church continue to drop but I'm posing a question not offering an answer the question is how is this going to play out I would like to think that as intellectual the intellectual atmosphere surrounding religion improves that more and more churches will feel comfortable returning to their roots and and teaching real stuff the real stuff not not >> [music] >> uh uh the this you know religion light and that that will bring back people to the churches [music] but I don't know that that's going to be the case >> alongside the public intellectuals finding their way to God are a steady stream of influencers [music] talking about their own journey towards faith.
¶110>> You know, I've been struggling, man. I've the [music] past like couple years I've had, you know, it's been a struggle. >> This is comedian Theo Vaughn in a serious moment, opening up to his 5 million YouTube subscribers. >> You know, sometimes I I realized for myself, I would pray to God to help me get away from certain behaviors in my life. Uh, but at the same time that I was praying, there would be a part of me that knew I was probably going to do those things again.
¶111And there's a story called John 5, and it's about a guy who's at these pools. There's a sick man there, and he's been sick for a long time. And um, and Jesus a and Jesus asks him, "Do you want to be healed?" He asks him, "Do do you want to be healed?" And that's a crazy question because you know if I get healed then I'm different. So that's just been something that I've been having to ask myself. It's like yeah, do [music] I want to be healed?
¶112Do I really want something different? And sometimes a a lot of the answer is no. I don't I want something different, but I don't want to I don't know if I'm scared of it. I don't know what I am. I don't know if I don't want to [music] do what it takes to get.
¶113I I can't even tell what it is. It's hard for this. Some of this stuff's [music] a little bit hard for me to say. I think I don't even know why, but I I think I want a new story. This August, another rebirth story took the YouTube community by surprise.
¶114>> Big news. God exists. Christ is Lord and he established the Catholic Church. [music] I'm not kidding. Joe Schmidt, whose channel Majesty of Reason, has for years engaged issues of faith from his position as an atheist agnostic, suddenly announced a [music] major change of mind.
¶115I'm Joe Schmidt. I'm a PhD student in philosophy at Princeton [music] University and I've been an agnostic and public critic of theism and Catholicism for [music] quite some time. But earlier this year, that all changed. So today, I'm just going to share my personal [music] journey. Uh if you want my hours long comprehensive case for Catholicism, [music] stay tuned.
¶116That's coming very soon. That multi-hour deep [music] dive on the intellectual reasons for Schmidt's embrace of Catholicism is now available and has unsurprisingly [music] divided his audience of both believers and skeptics. But the vibe shift isn't just intellectual, it's [music] experiential. Another Gen Z podcaster sharing his surprising rebirth journey recently is [music] Joe Weller. Last year on this podcast, we featured part of his interaction with atheist YouTuber Alex O' Conor.
¶117Most people would say it's a case of like surrendering going I surrender to God. >> Yes. >> I surrender to the fact that I don't have it all figured out and I am open to like God's plan for me or something. You know, completely surrendering. That's how a lot of people would describe their like actually diving in head first and giving it a go.
¶118Have you ever done anything like that? >> No. Because of the fact that like in order to as you put it surrender to something and and and people like you know like Christians will listen to what you're saying and go yes. Yes. Yes.
¶119That's Alex's problem. He needs to surrender to Christ. And maybe they're right. Maybe if I surrendered to Christ, whatever that means in practice, I would I would become a Christian. >> Is there any sense of fear?
¶120>> Fear of what? >> Of going surrender? Cuz the idea of especially like as a as a territorial man, like the idea of, >> you know, I want to protect myself. I want to surrender. What I mean, I [music] don't necessarily like prescribe to an actual religion, so to speak.
¶121I believe I mean, that's a whole other conversation. I'm open to anything. I think that's the thing. Like I accept that I don't have it figured out. >> I played the exchange as an example of where [music] Alex Okconor is on his faith trajectory.
¶122But perhaps the person we should all have been watching is Joe [music] Weller. He's been occasionally updating his 5 million YouTube subscribers on his own dabbles in spirituality, psychedelics, [music] well-being, and more. Then in June this year came this. Hey, now today I just want to say that I have been saved by the Lord Jesus Christ and it is the best thing that has ever happened to me. Never.
¶123Never did I think I'd be saying those words coming on here declaring that I thought it was all something else. I thought it was a load of nonsense. But when it makes sense, it really does make sense. I have tried everything, everything to try and feel genuinely fulfilled and at peace. Spirituality, diet, travel, here, there, everywhere, work, fame, money.
¶124I have tried everything that seems like it could work for me. And he never ever gave up. He never gave up when I was at rock bottom. And he was the only place left to turn. He has genuinely [music] transformed me.
¶125He has renewed my mind. He is [music] the truth, the way, the life that we are all searching for. And I'm just so thankful and grateful that [music] he never gave up on me. I love you. Have a great day.
¶126[music] Joe Weller's very public and sometimes emotional confessions of faith have [music] divided his audience. Many are glad to see him arrive at a place of peace. Others think he's lost his mind. In the end, the truth of the matter is between Joella and God, and we'll wait to see how the young podcaster's story turns [music] out in the long run. But what is hopefully obvious to everyone is that stories like these of intellectuals and influencers sharing surprising conversions with their millions of followers didn't [music] used to happen.
¶127Something has changed. When I launched this show nearly 3 years ago, I had very little hard statistical evidence to back up my thesis that there was a surprising rebirth of belief in God underway. I certainly sensed a vibe shift in the public conversation on God. The new atheism [music] of Dawkins and Co. was in retreat and a new breed of public intellectuals open [music] to the value of Christianity seemed to be on the rise.
¶128I sensed a vibe shift, but I had more anecdotes than data. But the past three years have seen an extraordinary [music] explosion of data, stories, surveys, and trends well beyond what I ever envisioned when I published my book and began [music] this podcast. But it's been a roller coaster of a ride. The religious vibe shift has overlapped with a political vibe shift, leaving many people concerned about the rise of a spiritually corrupt form of Christian nationalism. [music] So there are significant challenges to be navigated and the data itself has been disputed and indeed [music] the recent withdrawal of the quiet revival was another major twist in the rebirth story.
¶129So we need to be careful and cautious not to overstate things. But over the course of this opening episode to our third season, I've tried to show at least 10 specific instances [music] where there is evidence that a rebirth is still underway. To recap, the French Catholic [music] boom, the growing numbers of converts in UK church streams, the Scandinavian upturn, [music] the decline of the nuns and increase in religious sentiment among young men in the USA, the rise in Bible [music] sales, the surge in Christian music streaming, markers of Gen Z openness, the rebirth in football, the growth of the Alpha course, and finally, the many stories of intellectuals and influencers finding faith. [music] No, this does not amount to a revival. But I think we are still perfectly justified to talk about a rebirth.
¶130There are signs across a whole range of metrics, demographics, trends, and indeed countries that show that something [music] is stirring, especially among young people. Does any of this prove that Christianity is true? Well, [music] of course not. But the opportunities allowing people to investigate, explore, [music] and indeed experience whether it could be true, although those seem to be opening up as never before. College football is back.
¶131So, Hilton called me, the Superstition Concier, to make your fan rituals a reality. Need a room to match your lucky number? We got you. Want to make sure our team doesn't wash your lucky jersey? Ooh, that smells lucky.
¶132Hilton's unmatched hospitality can keep up with any superstition. Even a marching band wake up call at 555 and 55 seconds. Hit it. When you need a team [music] that will do whatever it takes on game day, it matters where you stay. Hilton for the sake.
¶133>> I get so many headaches every month. It could be chronic migraine. 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting [music] 4 hours or more. >> Botox onam toxin A prevents headaches [music] in adults with chronic migraine. It's not for those who have 14 or fewer headache days a month.
¶134Prescription Botox is injected by [music] your doctor. Effects of Botox may spread hours to weeks after injection, causing serious symptoms. Alert your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems, or muscle weakness can be signs of a life-threatening [music] condition. Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk. Side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection [music] sight pain, fatigue, and headache.
¶135Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms, and dizziness. Don't receive Botox [music] if there's a skin infection. Tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions including ALS Luger's disease, mythenia [music] gravis or Lambertan syndrome and medications including botulinam toxins as these may increase the risk of serious side effects. Why wait? [music] Ask your doctor.
¶136Visit botoxchronicmigraine.com or call 1-80044tox to learn more. The best part of waking up, a full cup of folders coffee and music on full blast. Wake me up. [music] >> Wake me up inside every smile. [music] The moment I wake up.
¶137[music] >> The best part of waking up is folders in your cup. >> Shop [music] folders K Cup pods and more at your nearest retailer. Ben Pollson set for the most important climb of his life. >> Here we go. Ben Pollson's moment of truth.
¶138He's got to make a good start here to have any chance. >> HE'S GOT TO GO FOR THE BUZZ. He hits it. [screaming] Ben Pson. He's done it.
¶139>> This is Ben Pollson becoming the first ever winner of Australia Ninja Warrior in 2020. Uh the most I guess notable thing that I'm known for here in Australia is Australian Ninja Warrior and winning Australian Ninja Warrior in the fourth season of the show. [music] Uh which I'm really grateful for and I worked hard towards. So that was a big part of my life doing all of that [music] and and since the whole Ninja Warrior journey, I actually ran a YouTube channel in the fitness space, health and fitness space for for a while and and got up to half a million subscribers doing that which I really enjoyed. And then I I kind of moved on from that and now I work in a lot of marketing.
¶140>> Ben Pollson had arguably achieved all his dreams by the age of 30, conquering the peak of physical prowess on a prime time TV show and then embarking on a successful career in the fitness [music] space. But he surprised his online audience earlier this year with an Instagram video titled My Humbling Experience at church as a lifelong [music] atheist. As a strict atheist, whenever someone has said to me, "Hey, brother, you should go to church or you should try praying." I've always kind of thought in my head, you know, like, uh, thanks, bro, but that's not really for me. Like, that's not my thing. I I don't believe those stories in the Bible.
¶141But recently, I went cuz I was kind of wrestling with some things. I was struggling and I'd been doing therapy and trying different things [music] and it just kind of wasn't it wasn't working. And so I went to church of all things and I was extremely [music] skeptical. Thought I'd walk in there, I thought I'd be really uncomfortable, a whole bunch of people which I don't connect with. They're talking about stuff I don't believe in.
¶142And then I'd leave going like, "Okay, I tried. That's it." But that's not what happened. I [music] went in and I stood at the back on my own. Then at that point, they said, "Hey, if you're struggling with anything, come down to the front and one of the people that work here will pray pray for you." [music] And so I walked down there on my own, walked through all these people. And I went down to the front.
¶143I felt super super vulnerable and I didn't even know what I was going to say. But I got down there and this guy came up to me [music] and he said, "Hey man, like what can I help you with, brother? What can I pray for you?" And I said, "Look, uh, to be honest, I don't I don't really know. Uh, I'm just kind of wrestling with some things right now and I just need some help." And he said, "No worries, brother. I got you." [music] And he held my head down and he put his hand on my back and he started praying for me.
¶144[music] And within about 10 seconds, I just started balling my eyes out. As it happens, a year or two before he posted [music] this video, Ben had reached out to me on Instagram to tell me something of his developing [music] story after reading my book, The Surprising Rebirth of Belief in God. We swapped a few messages, but after seeing his viral church video appear in my feed this year, I [music] contacted him again to pick up the conversation. But I have such a deep thirst for for [music] knowledge for uh philosophy for now religion is definitely becoming a big part of my life as well. Hence why I shared that that story uh online and the response I got was just absolutely phenomenal and I guess you know it's led me here.
¶145>> What would you describe your life as kind of growing up when it comes to faith, religion? Was that ever in the picture for you um when you were a kid? Justin, it was absolutely nowhere near uh my my life. I I was not raised uh at all in the church. You know, religion here in Australia, especially things like Christianity, is is not super common.
¶146Certainly not in my lifetime, I'm I'm almost 34 and throughout my life, I've never been surrounded by or or even had any kind of close connection to people which were religious. Like it was very far and few. I actually for I would say the first 30 years of my life I was a very strong atheist. You know I was a Richard Dawkins fan. Well that's really interesting to hear cuz on the one hand you obviously didn't really have any religious experience anyway.
¶147But you were quite drawn to these quite rational scientifically minded atheists like Richard Dawkins. What was it about their message and I suppose their kind of quite anti-religious posture that sort of attracted you in that way? >> I think I've learned over time that a lot of where that came from was two things. It was actually first of all a a complete lack of knowledge of what of the depth of religion and a religious belief or a faith-based belief. a complete lack of knowledge on that and understanding, but at the same time thinking that I was completely rational and could break it apart and I totally knew what it was all about even though I'd never read a single page of the Bible.
¶148So yeah, you you grow this significant YouTube following, social media following, too. Uh and then suddenly you you put this video out um saying, "Hey guys, atheist here. I've I've tried going to church and it's not what I expected." Do do you want to just tell us firstly what happened and and then we'll talk about the the video and the response you got to it? >> So the actual video I posted was me explaining the story of going to church really for the first time. Not necessarily the first time ever but certainly uh choosing to go voluntarily on my own for the purpose of learning which is very different to being dragged along for some other reason because you're with a friend.
¶149And so uh the experience I had was I I turned up and at the time uh I was wrestling with so many conflicting beliefs that was causing a lot of cognitive dissonance. I'm as I said earlier I'm very interested in things like philosophy and I'm a very I would say quite a deep thinker about consciousness uh about the universe about uh all the intricacies that is life and I was I guess I've also dealt with a huge amount of anxiety pretty much since I was 18 years old on and off anxiety and sometimes the anxiety or a lot of the anxiety can stem from existential ual thoughts which I can't answer. I just don't have answers for. And so I guess I was in a period where I was reading a lot into different belief systems and kind of stress testing my belief systems in a certain way to [snorts] do with this materialistic reductionist kind of atheist approach. And where it led me was a very dark, nihilistic place of feeling like the world is absolutely meaningless.
¶150And that would cause me to have panic attacks. It would cause me to just barely be able to function. I at my worst, I would literally be on the ground just laying on the carpet 12 hours a day, then go to bed for the rest of the time, and all I could do was occasionally flick through some videos or maybe read a book. uh I was just in this dark dark abyss and didn't know how to get out. The person which has helped me immensely in my life is and I would say single-handedly saved me in that darkest moment and saved my life in that sense was Jordan Peterson.
¶151uh without a doubt the way that he articulates and bridges the gap between an atheistic approach and the uh really reveals the wisdom and the depth of of of a religious or a faith-based belief system was just really freeing to me. And eventually I get to a point where I go I realize that I'm in this almost like this box of like scientific thinking. I'm outside of this science box is like everything else in life. And I I didn't realize that. I thought I was looking around trying to learn and understand things, but all I was seeing was was a reflection of my past beliefs.
¶152And I couldn't see anything else. So it was once I kind of realized that I thought okay well how do I see what's on the other side? Like how do I learn? I can read. That's one way.
¶153But I think the best way to do it is to live out my questions. And so just like if you wanted to learn a piano, you can read about the piano all you want, but until you actually go out there, you sit down and you start pressing the keys, then you'll actually start to really learn what the piano is about. >> [snorts] >> And so I thought, I'm going to go to church and I'm going to walk in there with the full intention of [music] trying to grasp what like some sort of I don't have an answer what that is, but I want to grasp like what is this? Why are why is like half the world or more so intrigued by this having a religious belief like there's something to it, you know? They're not all idiots like I used to think, you know, that's such a such a basic way of looking at it.
¶154They're clearly not all silly people. There's something to this, you know. And hats off to [music] you, Ben, for for going because there's a real difference, I think, between living in the world of podcast and reading and kind of thinking about this stuff and then actually sort of thinking, well, time to actually, you know, experiment and see if this there could be something to this and doing it in real life. So, yeah, tell tell us kind of how you geared up for that and what that experience was like when you actually went and did it. >> Walked into church.
¶155As I walk in, there's there's, you know, one guy greeting me briefly. Hey, hey, nice to meet you. And I was very nervous, also just very anxious because my nervous system was just wrecked at the time. Anything was causing me anxiety. So, but I walked in there and I sat at the back of the room and they started singing worship songs and and already I started to feel a little bit emotional and I'm I'm not hugely emotional person and I certainly hadn't cried or been emotional in a very long time at that point, but I started to kind of feel emotional.
¶156I was thinking, "Wow, this is strange. What is it about this place which is already kind of like seeing these people just just sing together is is wonderful." And the song's finished and they said, "Okay, well, we're going to have a segment now where if you're struggling with something, uh, come up to the front and we'll have someone pray for you." And I sat there and I really Justin, I really resisted. I was like, "This is like that's a little a step too far, you know, but I thought no, I said I'm here to experience it and live out the questions." and living out the question is going down there right now. You know, that's my conscience calling upon me, right? That is the voice of God is what I'm more learning a lot of people would would say these days.
¶157So, I walk down there and I'm really nervous and I walk up and there's probably about 10 people at the front praying for different people and all of a sudden one of them becomes free and it's the guy that introduced himself at the front which was actually perfect cuz he's the only one I kind of was felt comfortable with talking to at the time. And so, I walk down there and I say, "Hey." and he goes, "What's [music] going on? What can I help you with?" And I just said, "Look, brother, I actually don't know. All I know is that I'm really struggling right now [music] and I just need some help." And he said, "It's okay. I've got you.
¶158Let me pray for you." And he put his hand on my back and he started [music] to pray. And when he did that, I just burst out in tears. I just started crying uh in the arms of this random man in a church. It's like the furthest possible place I could ever imagine from actually finally having some relief of all the torment I'd been experiencing over that over that period. [music] And it was just absolutely so freeing.
¶159And I and he finished praying and and [music] I said, "Can I give you a hug?" And we hugged it out and I said like, "Thank you so much for that. It's it's it was that was that was wonderful." And for the next two weeks, I just felt so light. I didn't have any answers in the sense of scientific answers like like I rational everything answers but at the same time I actually still did [music] have answers. I just couldn't put them to pen and paper necessarily. So that's where it started.
¶160So So you you you [music] kind of had this experience and it felt like quite cathartic like a release. Um I don't know whether you had the language for what this was [music] or as you say you didn't have it all worked out uh and maybe still don't have it all worked out exactly but where did that where did that leave you and [music] um yeah and then how soon after that did you decide you wanted to kind of go public that some something's happened here? >> So that that initial time that happened was 2 years ago. So, for the last two years, I've been I've been going to church, and I get emotional just about every single time I go there, and I gained so much from it. And and actually, my partner, my wife, comes along with me.
¶161Uh she she's been to church a bit growing up and then she kind of fell away from it. Uh but we go together now, and she always gets so much from it. Uh we also I also pray uh daily. I find a huge amount of benefit from from praying. I also feel like I have a deeper understanding of maybe what prayer is from listening to people like uh Jordan Peterson and Jonathan Pagio and the way they speak about this this hierarchy of values that we have um in order to live in order to make decisions in the world and for me I see prayer as a way of realigning what is most important in my life.
¶162How do you how do you kind of engage what I'm sure is still a skeptical part of your brain that says was this was this what was this really God? You know, I feel like my mindset now is people can try all they want to reduce things and explain them scientifically. But that doesn't necessarily actually answer the question of why these things are so impactful and why life to life to life and to the soul. You know really to unpack this it kind of all has to come back to other foundational beliefs as well such as you know the first one being is there a god? What is that god?
¶163Is it a higher power higher intelligence? And for me, I guess the big shift is becoming open-minded to the idea that not everything is explainable. Really, where where it led me was I started to then kind of think, okay, well, is if there's something, is there a is there a god? Like, is there a creator behind all of this? and and I through I guess reading and learning and just you know trying to educate myself on different perspectives I kind of started to go wa this is a little bit spooky but I now I'm kind of getting to the point where I I think I can't see how it's can't be that like how can there not be an intelligent mind behind all of this that seems way more logical and practical to me now actually then it kind of just come from nothing and we're all just these these you know random particles which happen to be bumping into each other which have led us to be have this conversation uh in this deterministic way which I just don't I I that to me that I find it very difficult to believe that that is just that that's the case to me I think there's so much out there to really showcase that there is an intelligent mind behind it and so that was the next step was kind of is this intelligent mind and then I call you know I call that God that's what I pray to and then it was going to church and experiencing Christianity as the religion and then naturally comes the [music] next step which is okay well what about Jesus because everyone talks about Jesus are the stories real is the history real and Justin that's kind of where I'm at now which is beginning to read the Bible more and once again live out my questions and really contemplate these things and I'll tell you sometimes I will literally [music] have moments where I feel like that belief is kind of like simmering simmering there and is almost like, "Wow, imagine if that was true.
¶164Could this be true?" And then and then that fades away and I try to grasp for it again. I go, "Where? Hang on. Where was that feeling? I want that feeling back." So, I guess that's kind of where I'm teetering at the moment.
¶165It's interesting because I meet a lot of people who [music] are in your position, Ben, and for me it's uh it's a joy, you know, to to meet people who are kind of in that place where they're really engaging and want see if they [music] can move in that direction. There's a kind of a real openness. Um I've I've sometimes used the term elapsed atheist. They're just not satisfied with the materialist story [music] of reality anymore. It's kind of like that ship has sailed, but they're still kind of grappling with this the metaphysical [music] theological claims of the Christian worldview.
¶166And a lot of it is, I think, as as you've [music] kind of helpfully elucidated, it's almost like having to to some extent unlearn some of the stuff that you've kind of been [music] baptized in for the first 30 years of your life, which is this very materialistic, scientistic [music] kind of way of of understanding everything. and and kind of allow a different story to to start to peek through. Now, forgive me if this is a bit presumptuous, Ben, to say, but I I get the sense that that you perhaps, you know, in those 30 years or so that before you had this experience, embody what I think is so common in the kind of especially in the influencer sort of era we live in. It's it's about kind of presenting the ability to do everything and to to kind of conquer it all. But you did it.
¶167I mean, you reached that state of physical perfection. you you conquered the impossible competition kind of thing and and yet you were experiencing all this kind of behind that, you know, anxiety and and panic attacks and and it just reminds me that with the the Instagram or, you know, whatever version of people that they put out, we rarely see the the bigger picture of what's going on underneath. For me, one of the things that Christianity can offer people is is a kind of peace that you don't have to do it all and win at life. you can kind of fail at life actually and that's okay cuz God God's still there and God still loves you and you it's not about how well you do basically. You're completely right.
¶168And yeah, look, I even confuse myself sometimes with how I was able to, you know, be in the hotel room uh for production over in the east coast of Australia and having a panic attack and literally not even be able to go to the elevator to go down five flights to to meet my friends in the lobby because the fear of having to leave the room to go to an elevator and go down and meet them down there was so terrifying that I would of a massive panic attack that I just couldn't do it. And then later the next night I would compete on the show in front of, you know, hundreds of people and television cameras uh to millions of people in Australia. So I I I don't understand either how I was able to do that. I think I was barely keeping it together to be honest. But um to even have an inkling of real belief that there is this creator out there which truly loves me no matter what.
¶169And once again, that's something sometimes I grasp that to a degree where I genuinely feel it and it's once again it's so freeing and I go like wow like what am I worried about when there's some something out there which has created me that loves me that wants me to that wants me to win that wants me to do the best that I possibly can but if it's okay no matter what he's always going to be there so there's that side of it then there's always the other side which is more of the learning that the greatest, you know, the greatest sense of joy in life is not happiness. It's knowing that your existence matters. And I guess the way Jordan puts it is like self-sacrifice for the greater good of others, which is what my dad would say, which is make yourself meaning uh make yourself useful. That if you want to if you want to have live a happy life, make yourself useful. He's always said that to me, and it makes so much sense now.
¶170And it's really what a lot of the religious text is based off is this idea of self-sacrifice is is bearing your cross. And that's something that I feel like as I lean more towards that way of living of serving others and uh that being the primary goal over necess like over the tangible assets and the uh hedonistic lifestyle and I find it so much more fulfilling to try to live my life based on what sacrifices should I should be made now to [music] make sure that I'm there for others and and I've got a baby actually on the way in August. I've got a son. Congrats. Thank you.
¶171Yeah. [music] Thank you. And so I should I prioritize me, what I want to do. Who's that going to help? >> It's going to be very shortlived [music] and it's not going to help anyone apart from me.
¶172And I realized that I I I I can feel the negative effects of living a life like that and also the positive effects of this of this idea of self-sacrifice. >> [music] >> The only thing I'd add to to what I think is a really brilliant sort of description of of that sense [music] of self-sacrifice that you've sent and the the usefulness is I think for me as a Christian I would say [music] that can still become very exhausting if you're only doing it in your own strength and I'm not saying you are only doing your own [music] strength but the person who wants to make a difference in the world uh and be useful that's there that's a brilliant [music] kind of motivation and and self-sacrifice is going to be part of that but I would A to the extent that we do that, if we can do that because of [music] someone who has gone ahead of us and done that himself in the most extraordinary way and that for me would be Jesus Christ, I think it makes all the difference because you can draw on a kind of a strength and an example that you cannot do in your own strength in my experience. Um, and I see a lot of people who want to change the world and want to put other people first, but they kind of burn out in the process. [music] Uh yeah, h having Christ at the center of it is it kind of enables us to do [music] far more than than we would be able to do in our own strength in that way. Uh a lot of it when I think about these things and like what should I do now?
¶173What's the right decision? Uh I I think I'm [music] heading in that same direction maybe uh as to what you're explaining because I always think well I wait for I wait for for [music] for God or my conscience to give me the answer and I have a very strong trust in what that answer is and I go okay it's almost like I go okay I'm going to do that because that's what you would like that's [music] kind of the the plan you've got for me that's what you would like me to do [music] and so I'm going to do it for you in a weird way like I'm doing it for the person, but I'm also doing it because I know [music] it's the right thing to do based on my relationship with what God is is telling me. So, I feel like I'm maybe I've got my foot my [music] toe in the water of what you've explained, but the next step is really this this the the life of Jesus [music] being the the real sacrifice which I'm comparing to. >> Bless you for sharing so candidly and for kind of allowing me to to kind of play [music] mini evangelist here in the interview. I love the advice by the way, you know, Justin, like like at any point, you know, it's like I I do love you giving [music] your perspective and and guidance on these things because I I want to help bridge the gap for a lot of other people which have maybe listening to to this and are [music] struggling or are in that position that I once was.
¶174God bless you. Thank you. And uh yeah, we will catch up again, I'm sure. Thanks, Justin. Ben [music] Pollson.
¶175His story of being at the peak of physical fitness and yet experiencing debilitating anxiety reminds me of the [music] fact that we're living in a generation where self-improvement of the mind and body has never been more fashionable, yet often masks a much [music] deeper ache in the soul. As we conclude this first episode of a fresh season of this show exploring 10 signs that the rebirth is far from dead, [music] I wanted you to hear our conversation because Ben doesn't feel like he's fully arrived yet or settled all the questions he has about faith. And that means he's like a lot of people I've been meeting in the [music] past 3 years on a journey. Rebirth doesn't happen overnight. But something is still stirring.
¶176[music] And in the end, if there's any evidence that this rebirth is still alive and kicking, it won't come from statistics or surveys. [music] The best evidence is showing up in the lives of seekers like Ben. [music] >> [music] >> You've been listening to the surprising rebirth of belief in God with me, Justin Bryley, continuing to tell the story of why many secular 21st century people are considering Christianity again. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with others. A rating and a review also helps others [music] to discover the show.
¶177In this new season, we'll be diving deeper into some of the topics we've covered today, [music] including the rebirth in football and the rise in Bible sales. Plus, you can expect documentary episodes on why members of the online occult [music] community are coming to faith in Christ, how AI is shaping a new conversation on humanity, and we'll be exploring the problem of suffering and evil, [music] made especially pertinent in light of this summer's devastating flash floods in Nepal and the sad news of a fatality at this year's canceled Big Church Festival in the [music] UK. Plus, there'll be more interviews, live shows, and features charting why our culture is experiencing [music] a new openness to faith and what the church can do to meet it. Plus, if you want more from Think [music] Faith, check out our new dialogue show, Uncommon Ground, returning for its second season later this [music] autumn. If you'd like to help me produce more Thinking Faith content, please consider becoming a monthly supporter.
¶178Silver supporters get early access to new episodes of both podcasts as [music] well as bonus content. Gold supporters also get signed copies of both my books and [music] a monthly catchup call with me. The links are with the show notes coming up next time. I kept kind of bumping up against how incredibly close in time to the life and death [music] of Jesus Paul was writing. >> They know the geography.
¶179They know what people are called. They know the sort of jobs people do. They know where the tax collectors should be and these sort of things. In Luke, you get the story of Caesar Augustus decreeing that all the world should be taxed. [music] >> The biggest problem historically in the New Testament.
¶180>> My feeling about the the attempts to explain it is that people are only doing [music] it because they want it to be true. We have really good evidence that Jesus really did die by Roman crucifixion. But of course, all four gospels also claim he rose again. They clearly believe that something extraordinary had happened. And I think to doubt that makes a nonsense [music] of the emergence and spread of Christianity.
¶181You're in for a treat. Earlier this year, I hosted a live audience conversation between historian Tom Holland and Cambridge Bible scholar Dr. [music] Peter J. Williams. It's a fantastic debate in which Tom Holland, co-host of the hugely popular Rest is History podcast, explains where he stands on the historical and miraculous claims about Jesus [music] Christ.
¶182But you don't have to wait. You can listen to it right now, 2 weeks early when you support. As I've mentioned, do get on board if you can. The links are with the show info. The surprising rebirth of Belief in God is a production of Think Faith, editing assistance by Isaac Simmons.
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