¶1Welcome to Unbelievable the interview. I had the great privilege of speaking to Tyler Statton. We covered all sorts of topics from suffering to doubt to how we tell a better story in the midst of the culture wars. I hope you enjoy it. Well, I'm absolutely delighted to be joined by Tyler Stton, the lead pastor of Bridgetown Church in Portland and author of many books, including his most recent, After.
¶2Amen. >> Tyler, I guess the first question is, how are you and your family doing? You've been through a lot the last few years, haven't you? >> Yeah, we're doing great. Personally, um I was declared cancer free just about a month ago now and that was a new stage in my journey.
¶3It means for my particular diagnosis, I've spent over two years now in remission. And so my status changes. Um, and I feel entirely normal and healthy, which is a real gift. Um, my family's doing great. My boys are now 9, 8, and four.
¶4And it feels like we're just in a chaotic but golden age of parenting. Um, and my wife is tough as nails and absolutely thriving and loving ordinary life. >> Brilliant. Brilliant. And to delve into some of that cancer journey, if you don't mind, do you feel like your >> your theology of suffering changed once you got the cancer diagnosis.
¶5So, I suppose it's one thing to have the theoretical ideas around how you reconcile the problem of suffering, but it's quite another thing when you're actually going through it yourself, isn't it? >> It is. My theology didn't change. meaning what do I believe about God, the the world, the justice and love of God and the issue of human suffering. None of that changed the way that I might explain all of that did change.
¶6Um, and I would say primarily it softened and there was some new questions that became more important maybe than the classic questions. And so, interestingly enough, the previous book I wrote, which is called the familiar stranger, there's a chapter in it on redemptive suffering. And once I was going through cancer, that book was about to be published. I went back and rewrote that chapter while going through chemotherapy. And I changed none of the theology, but a lot of the explanation.
¶7So I guess if someone is in a similar position to where you were a couple of years ago and they're really grappling with these big questions, not theoretically, but but from a this is me in the middle of it, how do we hold on to the goodness of God in the midst of deep suffering? You know, I think that there's this whole undertone in scripture of that essentially answers the question, how does God feel about what I'm going through? And how does God relate to me as I'm going through it? And I think if I were to summarize the biblical answer in just a single sentence, I would say God deals with suffering in two ways. Sometimes he removes it.
¶8Other times he redeems it. Removal is obvious. It means the miraculous healing of my ailment. Um but redemption is a little bit fuzzier of a concept. But to me, redemption means that if I surrender my suffering to God, he will use it as the portal through which to do deep formative work in my soul that is so great that given the opportunity to exchange the removal of the pain and the removal of that formation in my soul or keep the pain and keep the formation I would take the ladder and that would be the truth of my cancer journey.
¶9If you asked me, do you wish you'd never gone through it? I would say no. I'm strange as is to say, I'm glad I went through it because it was the hardest and most spiritually formative chapter of my life to date. Um, but you know, I would also say the Bible makes room for the problem that the answers to all of that changes with death. Death is the ultimate injustice in the world.
¶10It is the ultimate part of all human experience that is outside of God's design. which I think is why it is so unique that in the Christian story we have a God who deals with death by dying and who brings an end to death by dying. Um because all of that makes sense if you have a story of suffering where suffering didn't win. But if you if we went back and and we were having this conversation as I was about to breathe my last breath, >> I would say no, no, no. I would do anything to take this disease away because it is bringing an end to my life.
¶11And no one, regardless of what you believe, no one stands over a casket and says, "This is just how it should be." >> You know, everyone knows. There's something in all of us that goes, "No, no, it we were not made to know, become, love, and then end." >> Yeah. Cuz I guess the redemptive nature of suffering makes sense in light of your experience. But if if there was someone who say lost their 3-week old baby, you like you wouldn't that would not be your response to that person, would it? >> No.
¶12And I would say the way that God redeems that story is by dying a death. So that that story is not the end of anyone's story. >> So for you, the suffering God is a really key element of your the >> Absolutely. Yeah. I guess if if you were to say, how did my relationship with God change?
¶13I would say I feel like I've always known the triumphant savior quite well. And when I went through cancer, I got to know the suffering servant. And I think it is so key that dating all the way back to the messianic prophecies, Jesus was named both at the same time. >> And this is something you touch on in in after amen. I think when we think about Easter, we think about Good Friday and then we rush straight to the triumph of Easter Sunday, but actually Holy Saturday is often where Christians brush over straight to the victory.
¶14But actually we do so at our detriment, don't we? >> Yes. Waiting is such a key part of the Christian life. And Holy Saturday is a pattern in scripture. There's tons of three-day stories of the way that God works out redemption going Old Testament all the way up to Jesus.
¶15There's so often this repeated motif of things taking three days. We see it in the life of Jacob, the life of Joseph, the life of Esther, so on and so forth. And I I think that that there should be a question people would ask that goes something like, why a day in between? Like, why wouldn't Jesus die on Friday and raise on Saturday? Or why didn't God just wait till Saturday to die if he wanted to raise on Sunday?
¶16And I think it's because the whole of the Christian life is essentially lived on Holy Saturday. Like we get reborn into a life of faith, but we're waiting on the completion of I I know resurrection life right now, but not in its fullness. And it's that mystery theologians call the already, not yet. And waiting is often where God does his deepest and most formative work. And I would say this is a unique thing.
¶17I think a lot about the way that uh spiritual maturity often pairs with the natural uh life stage development of the human being. And I think I feel profoundly middle-aged now. I feel like my uh often young adults feel like young adults forever and maybe I was on that trajectory, but my my body has gone through a lot quickly and I don't feel like the same man I was physically before I went through cancer and everything. So, I just feel in many ways like I'm not as young as I used to be. And I think that middle age really confronts us with the need for waiting in our spiritual life.
¶18It is a period of time where we are struggling to in the words of Ronald Rohis are struggling to give our lives away struggling. Why is it difficult for me to love well the people I love most? Why is it so difficult for me to love consistently the people I love most? Why do I find it challenging to be patient with my children no matter how many times I reup on the desire and intention to be patient with my children, to enjoy them, to let them be children, growing up, making mistakes, needing to ask questions repeatedly, things like that. It's uh I think in middle age we suddenly get confronted with our human limitation and therefore the need to wait on God for our deepest redemption.
¶19And all of these concepts are bound up in that day of Holy Saturday. And Portland, I suppose, is a little bit more like England than some other places in the US in that there's quite a lot of the rise of secularism, postmodernity, all of that. Would you say that in your encounters with non-Christian, the predominant question, the predominant objection that people have is this problem of suffering? >> H that's a great question. And I think it was for a large portion of human history.
¶20Now I think the primary objection is exclusivity. >> Mhm. >> I think people really really like the idea of Jesus >> and the idea of Jesus being a way to God. the idea of Jesus working really well for some >> people are really really put off by the idea of Jesus being the way, the truth, and the life and Jesus having an exclusive claim on a pathway to salvation, meaning fullness of life for all people. >> And you've written a lot about prayer.
¶21You were part of the 247 prayer movement. Do you feel like your cancer taught you anything about prayer? >> Most definitely. Mainly about listening to God and the importance of allowing all of my prayers to be a response. um and the necessity of discernment meaning uh being slow, thoughtful and reflective about what the kingdom or Jesus response is for me given the circumstances of my life.
¶22Um, for instance, I'm someone who is very very charismatic in my theology and that I believe everything in the Bible is true and livable. So, I believe God miraculously heals today and I never prayed for my own miraculous healing. I did welcome others who wanted to pray for me in that way because I I don't have a 100% accurate read on God's voice. But as I prayed and listened to God in the days following my diagnosis, I felt a sense of deep assurance that I would go through this and it would not end my life. And and so it just didn't feel like praying within the will of God or praying even just in response to God for me to to ask that God would subvert that process of what I thought was not something I believe that sickness, suffering, and death is all outside of God's design.
¶23I don't think God willed for me to have cancer, but that God wanted to use what the enemy intended for evil, for good in my life if I would entrust it to him. >> You talk about miraculous healing there. This is a huge question. But why is it that some people get healed and some people don't? >> I've written a whole chapter in a book about that uh in my chapter on healing the familiar stranger trying to answer that question.
¶24the the shortest and simplest answer would be I don't know and neither does anybody else. Um the Bible the the illustration I use which I find helpful is that in in scripture we are given ingredients to healing but not the recipe. So if you want a recipe for what is the way I pray that cracks the safe of the heavenly riches of healing, I would say there isn't that. Jesus heals people in all sorts of different ways. If you're looking for a method of healing prayer, Jesus is a nightmare.
¶25Sometimes he's spitting in the dirt and rubbing on people's eyes. Other times he's uh healing people from a long distance away with a word from his lips by interacting with someone else. Once he heals a guy because of the faith of their friends. Other times he says that someone isn't healed because they have no faith. And sometimes he heals people in spite of their lack of faith.
¶26You know, there's just we're all over the map with this guy. Um, what I would say is there are some definite themes to healing in scripture, particularly in the gospels. And so, similarly to baking a cake, I've actually never baked a cake. And so, if you were like, Tyler, what is the recipe for a good cake? I would say, I don't know.
¶27I do know that you need eggs, flour, and sugar. and probably some other things but yeah butter yeah I know these things are involved but I do not know the correct measurements of each and I think healing is like that >> so what do we say how do we respond to someone whose prayers who feels like their prayers haven't been answered and maybe that's the reason they either no longer believe in God or can't believe in God in the first place >> what would I say to that person, I think I would ask a lot of questions. I'd want to know a lot about what they were praying, what they were expecting, and where they formed their sense of expectation about either what God owed them or what God would do if they asked. I think often we are disillusioned in prayer by ideas that we subconsciously put on God that if articulated we might begin to realize like we often do when we get frustrated with people like oh I guess maybe maybe I had formed media that if I did this, you would notice and you would do this and you didn't. And I guess I haven't been entirely fair to you because I've been putting this projection on you or you know, I think we do that with God all the time.
¶28And I wouldn't want to ask questions to try to expose that person. And I just mean I think the type of conversation I have would have to be dictated by that person's unique individual experience. I don't think there is an answer to oh this is if you are struggling with doubt because of unanswered prayer. You just need to hear this. I I don't think that exists.
¶29And so do you think as someone who talks a lot about prayer, who's been in these really stressful situations where maybe you're you're wrestling with some of this stuff, do you think that prayer can actually change situations? >> Yes, absolutely. I think if you're going to believe the Bible, you have to believe that. >> Because that happens a lot in the Bible. You either have to believe that or you have to believe that for some reason God decided he was going to act a certain way for much of human history and then entirely changed the way he acts now that he's given us a book even though we don't have that book accessible to large percentages of the world still today.
¶30So that that seems a faulty way of thinking about God and the canon of scripture to me. I would say prayer is absolutely effective in the world today and all Christians are given the vocational work of intercessory prayer on the earth today and that operates by the cake principle. >> I do not know the recipe to get God to do what I think God should do. nor do I believe that that is the best plan for the world's renewal. I think God's way of renewing creation is better than mine.
¶31I think it's slower than mine, but I really, really have come to trust what scripture says, and I've seen it threaded throughout the Bible all the way up to when it said in first Peter, "God is not slow as some consider slowness. He is patient, not desiring that anyone should perish. I think God is absolutely committed from when he chooses Abram in the early chapters of Genesis all the way through redemptive history to redeeming creation through people relationally. And that is the most beautiful, the most loving way to renewal. Every screenwriter who's ever written a gorgeous film wants to write a story of renewal that way.
¶32It is breathtaking to behold. And it is absolutely the slowest route to renewal. If you want to know what the most efficient way to make creation right looks like, it's Noah's flood. God showed us that in a thought experiment and it is quick. It is efficient and it is not enough because it does not deal with the problem that is inside of us.
¶33That there is no one righteous, not even one, as the New Testament will go on to say. And so if God wants to heal what a deception that has gotten so deep within us that we pass it on relationally, then that deception has to be redeemed relationally. And that's slow work. >> And so do you think that God will reveal himself to those who are genuinely seeking? >> Yes.
¶34Yes. Absolutely. I think that I don't think God's playing it koi. I think God wants to be known and I think God knows that. I think God is a father who desires full life for every one of his children.
¶35And I believe that all men and women are his children. And so I don't think that I don't think God is trying to keep himself from being discovered by some people. Um, I think a a prayer I often pray for others is that God would speak a language that they can understand. Um, and I think God knows us deeply and he can reveal himself to us uniquely in the context of our circumstances and personalities and everything like that. >> And I don't know whether it's the same in the States, but we are experiencing a mental health crisis particularly among our young people here in the UK.
¶36I imagine it is the same in the states. So, do you think God can help someone who's battling crippling anxiety? >> Absolutely. Yeah. I think that we do a disservice to people when we pretend that every psychological issue is a spiritual issue.
¶37That's how spiritual manipulation abuse has happened historically is psychological issues get misdiagnosed as spiritual issues. And that that was going on with physical ailments during the time of Jesus. And people thought, oh, you've been you're being cursed or punished by God. That's why you're blind. Um when the truth is like, no, I just >> was born with an inability to see or I had this accident.
¶38And and the same thing can happen to our brains, right? Like no, I just had this I I witnessed something. I've gone through psychological trauma or I was born with a chemical imbalance in my brain or whatever it may be. So I think proper diagnosis of what is the core issue is important and I think we can equally do a disservice to say oh if it's psychological God is uninvolved. um as if God is not the designer of our thinking and emotional worlds and cannot appeal to us in those ways, heal us in those ways and meet us in our suffering in those ways.
¶39And so I think we just need to be careful to give proper diagnosis and then proper un proper invitation to God to be known in whatever the unique ways we're hurting may be. M and when I spoke to the late Tim Keller just before he died, he'd sort of coined this phrase scans scan anxiety where before he had a cancer scan, he would feel this crippling anxiety about what the scan would reveal. And I don't know whether that was your experience as well, but I guess how do we trust God when there are genuine reasons for us to be afraid like in those situations where you're about to have a scan that would potentially reveal something scary? Well, you know, I think it's just important to define like what does it mean to trust God in that situation. I don't think it means uh I don't think trusting God means the scan's going to reveal the information I want.
¶40>> And I don't think trusting God means therefore feeling incredibly nonchalant about the experience. I think trusting God means that my life is going to be beautiful and hard and that the greatest hope and reward that I have in my life is to know God meeting me in the circumstances that I'm dealt today every day. Whether that be I'm on I'm going on holiday with my family tomorrow and here's just some things that have happened on previous family holidays. I have known God through many moments of absolute delight with one of my children. I have wept in the evening on family holiday recounting to God ways that he ministered to me as I was attuned to his presence coming to me through the smiles of one of my kids.
¶41And I have been on a family holiday where the electricity went out during a heatwave in the hotel we were staying in and one of my children accidentally hit the other one in the head with a putter on a mini golf course and I was so we were just sweating like crazy in a town whose electricity had gone out entirely. ly with in a emergency room and I'm like giving a chocolate milkshake to one of my little boys while he's getting stitches across his forehead and staples to hold it together. And you know what? I don't I'm not glad that happened to my child, but I cherished the memory of that holiday and that night and I laughed with God about that experience and I knew God's presence to me in that hospital room. I guess as I go on family holiday, I personally would prefer the former experience, you know, but I know that the reward of life is the presence of God.
¶42And I think everything I'm saying is said much more succinctly in Psalm 23. Right? All of us are going to live our lives with days where we are beside green pastures and still waters and many days where we're walking through the valley of the shadow of death. But your rod and your staff, they comfort me. Our comfort is knowing that it is the good shepherd leading and guiding us all the way home to rest where there is nothing but delight and joy in his presence with others forever.
¶43And so if I can know his rod and staff in the scaniety of awaiting what's coming next, that is trusting God. We're going to have to go to a quick break, but do check out our website premierunbelbelievable.com where you can find lots of great resources and you can connect with us on social media. We are launching a brand new course which helps us to consider the evidence and questions around the birth of Jesus. It's called Did It Really Happen the Birth of Jesus? Why not sign up for the course or gift it to a friend?
¶44Find out more at premierunbelievable.com. Tanner, I don't know if this is your context in Portland, but certainly here in the UK, we're seeing a bit of a renewed interest in spirituality. They're calling it the quiet revival, and there's, you know, there's a debate as to whether it's quiet or noisy, but there does seem to be a renewed interest in spirituality. Why why do you think that is? You know, this this is kind of interesting to me because I because of so many close friendships in the UK, I am very aware of this trend.
¶45>> And when you mentioned like our young people are quite anxious, are yours? I'm like, yes, actually. And if you're like, we're experiencing a revival, are you? I'm like, no, actually we're not. and and I've wondered some why that is >> uh why the difference in the the story for the church in the US and the UK.
¶46And I don't know that the church in the US is in a massive moment of decline or anything like that. I just mean not the the season of renewed spiritual interest I hear of here. What I would say I see happening in the US is I see a much an uptick in interest in spirituality but I would say it's not necessarily channeled or even favoring Christian spirituality. I think the interest in eastern and new age spiritualities is much much more common. So even earlier you were mentioning you know Portland being a land of secularism.
¶47I I might even just say like I think the west coast of America is a land of spiritualism. >> Sure. um many people practicing many different types of spirituality and so the cardinal sin would be exclusivity as I was saying before >> and I think the Christian church has been polluted by nationalism. Um the Christian church in America to be very frank has both of our countries have gone through some really strange political moments. >> Really unflattering political moments quite on a global scale.
¶48But the church in America, I think, became entangled in the politics of America in ways that and I'm I would not align with either camp of the entanglement >> um personally uh in in any like full or exclusive way. But I think that has been a great detriment to the church in America and has been a contributor to why we see less of a quiet revival happening in the American church than I hear about in the the church this side of the pond. >> So then I suppose to flip it, can Christianity speak hope in the midst of those culture wars that you're seeing in America? >> Absolutely. But the way Christianity speaks hope is so um beautiful to hear and hard to live.
¶49>> You know, can Christianity speak hope in the darks of times? Ask Dr. Martin Luther King. He uh he was able to speak hope to the AfricanAmerican community battling civil rights. But his message of hope was we won't fight them back.
¶50While the whole world was going, you have every right to fight back against the people who are treating you lesser than without dignity. The people who are >> abusing you because of your race. And he was going, "No, I guess yeah, maybe we have a right, but if our ethic is the cross, you can't fight darkness with darkness. Only light beats darkness. >> And so we will we are going to love them.
¶51And my word, what a life to behold. A very flawed man, but man, did he love Jesus and take Jesus seriously and led others to do the same. And there are many stories like that of people living the way of Jesus in such a true and sincere way that it became hope in dark times. So the way of Jesus is the only hope in America right now. The question is, will there be people with the courage not not just to celebrate it as an idea, but to live it as a costly reality and to form communities around living that way.
¶52That is who I long to be um and who I'm asking God to form me into. But um yeah, I hope I'm on the way. Tyler, your new book, After a Men, there's there's lots of beautiful poetry in there. Why was it that you were drawn to poetry in the middle of your cancer rather than, I suppose, deep cerebral theology? >> I mean, it probably has to do some with just the unique uh way that my particular chemotherapy cocktail affected my brain.
¶53I I had a heavy heavy mental fog. I went, you know, there's all sorts of different chemotherapy treatments. I went through a very toxic treatment, the most toxic of anyone at the practice I was in at the time. And so just really knocked out and so it was difficult uh to read or focus for any length of time. And uh a good friend of mine, he calls poetry the whiskey of of literature.
¶54So it's kind of like language distilled to its most potent. And so it is trying to say a lot with very few words. And that was easier for me to take in and then marinate on or chew on throughout the day. And so I think I've always enjoyed reading poetry. I have had a practice of reading poetry daily for years and it became more important to me in that season where uh pros or journalism or long form explanation became more difficult for me to to read and interact with.
¶55>> I suppose a big part of poetry and something you talk about a lot in your book is the idea that beauty points beyond ourselves. Why why is that necessary? Why can't a beautiful sunset just be a beautiful sunset or a brilliant Bon album as you talk about just be a beautiful piece of music? Why does it necessitate sort of pointing outside of ourselves? >> Um gosh, I don't know why necessitates that.
¶56I just would say that is the human experience. I I think beauty transcends the ideas that we believe or the ideas we think we believe. >> Mhm. >> Um you know you can I I don't know basically like beauty is sort of it sneaks past all of our defenses. So if you You can hold really strong ideas about something and then weep at a film >> that promotes an alternative message.
¶57And I would just say like if you've ever had that experience, I would challenge you to wonder why that is. And it doesn't mean that the film is revealing truth uh through its message, but it might mean that it it might challenge you to think bigger than the opinions you've formed >> about who you are as a whole person or how it is that you uh form opinions or ideas or how it is that you process and decide what is true in the world. So, I would say plenty of people believe the whole world is nothing but an accident. But I've never in my life to date seen someone gazing at a sunset over the ocean saying, "Wow, what a startling combustion of matter." you know, and so I think uh I think anything that causes us to stop and wonder doesn't mean that you should believe everything I believe. It just means oh there's there's mystery in the world >> and there's mystery within you and that should at the very least be a little bit humbling to every person.
¶58M so I guess when you look at like the apologetics arguments for God, you've got the cosmological argument, the argument for morality, but there is the aesthetic argument, the idea that this objective beauty sort of creates in us a sense that there may be a creator. Do you think that's a compelling argument for the evidence of of an existence of God? >> Uh I don't know if it's I I think it's compelling in that there is truth in it. I think that I think the reason I wanted to interact with poetry is because I think we are at a moment in human history when beauty is more important than it has been >> previously in more maybe when I say previously I mean in recent generations I think there has been an ideological shift from tell me >> to show me. So again if you were saying earlier like what is the primary objection to the way of Jesus and then I would say what is the best explanation of the way of Jesus today?
¶59previous generations it was all apologetics like give me a compelling apologetic argument and I'm ready to surrender the whole of my life >> and I would say now it's give me the most beautiful way to live the story that feels truest to my inner being and my desire and I'll give my life to it so it's kind of gone from tell me to show me >> and so what I think that means is that beauty is more important to my generation of young adults or middle-aged adults as I was saying before and all of those coming behind us. And I also think that beauty is increasing in importance as we are just on the cusp of the era of AI >> and no no none of us know how that's going to affect culture or anything like that. What I know is that we are increasingly trying to figure out how our interaction with screens and technology should be properly limited so that these are tools rather than deformative forces in our lives. We're going to have to do the same thing with artificial intelligence and the the mediums that speak deepest to the human soul that are uniquely human I think can guide us to what is good and what leads to life versus what is evil or destructive and leads to death. uh all come down to um beauty and story.
¶60And so I think art, whether it's in the natural world that we behold at a moment in the day or whether it is someone else capturing one of those moments and sharing it with the world through a piece of art >> and story. Whether it's a couple friends sitting around a campfire or the writing of a beautiful novel, these mediums of communication still speak to the soul in a way that is profoundly human. and profoundly dignifying. And so I think those are increasingly important in the era that we're in, in the era we are entering more and more. >> So I guess into that context context of of everyone wanting a beautiful story, wanting to tell a better story.
¶61Why do you believe that Christianity is not just a beautiful story, but that it is actually true? >> H Well, I believe that for all sorts of reasons. I'm trying to think what would be the most helpful response right now. I think Christianity is not just a beautiful story but is true because I would say it is the only beautiful story that every other every individual story becomes more beautiful within it. It is the it is the only story that dignifies the the every individual experience.
¶62It is the only story that you can take every other human story, whether you're talking about the death of a three-w weekek old baby that you mentioned before or a a long and happy life or a wealthy person who became increasingly crotchety as they got old and is now retired and doesn't know what to do with themsel because all they ever knew how to do was work and make money. you know, any of those stories put within the story of Jesus becomes beautiful, becomes redeemed, and gets folded into like the the sunset that never ends. Um, and so I don't know any other story that I have ever heard in my life. I don't think there's another story that's ever been told that matches that criteria. So, how do we as individuals tell a better story?
¶63How do we, I guess, fulfill that mandate in Psalm 137? How do we sing the songs of Zion while in a foreign land? How how do we tell that better story? How do we sing those songs of Zion in a context that doesn't look the way it should? H I think all of the different ways that people tell stories, I think we act in concert with that story in our lives in ways as loud as Dr.
¶64King and as quiet as the way a mother humbly lays her life down for her one daughter. And I think we make art that reveals that story. And I don't mean that like Christians should make Christian movies. I mean throughout history, the Christian church has been the creative cathedral of the world. Um, I think we make great art that is laced with that story in the way the Psalms are.
¶65>> The Psalms don't all resolve the same way, but they all point us to Jesus. Many of the Psalms are about the pain of moments where we can't find Jesus in our stories. So, we make art that is that honest and that real and we tell that story. I think we do write books and think hard and craft great intellectual explanations around that story. I guess if you want a oneperson example like think about CS Lewis.
¶66CS Lewis wrote some of the most winsome, reputable, dense theology that has ever been written. Um, and CS Lewis also, if you if you said, what is like CS Lewis's altar call? What is the greatest explanation of the gospel he ever wrote? I would say it's called the Chronicles of Narnia. It's been read by more people than any book on Jesus I'm aware of.
¶67And it is the story of the Bible packaged into an imagination that is gorgeous enough that I read it a few years ago and and couldn't put it down, but also my seven-year-old son could understand every word of it at the time. So, I don't know if that little ramble is an answer to your question, but I think we tell the story in all those ways. >> And Lewis also said in in an essay on Christian apologetics that we don't just write exactly as you said, we don't just write Christian stories, but we need more Christians writing great stories or great books on science, great books on history. >> Exactly. Yeah.
¶68>> Where you said there that, you know, sometimes we struggle to find Jesus in our story or struggle to experience Jesus in the midst of what we're going through. How do we handle our doubts in those situations? Cuz that must have been something that when you were grappling with your cancer diagnosis and and all of that just I'm not saying that you lost your faith, but there must have been some of those questions, the wrestling. >> Yeah. I think we first just have to normalize like that that is a healthy and normal part of a spiritual life.
¶69Like life is long, hard and complex. You won't find it easy to hold on to any set of beliefs or convictions for your entire life. That's like going into marriage thinking we're always going to be in the honeymoon stage. Of course, you're not. That's such a ridiculous expectation for a whole life.
¶70But love can become more beautiful, deeper, more real, more romantic, more formative over the course of a life together if you're willing to let it breathe and change and grow. And that means every dry season isn't a problem that should be immediately and efficiently solved. You will suffocate the relationship if if you relate to it that way. Secondly, I would say doubt charades as an intellectual problem, >> but it's almost always born out of an experience of disappointment, right? Like doubt is almost always born of grappling with the story that I believe does not match the story that I'm living >> in a way that I'm unable to reconcile.
¶71And I think for me it's really important that that experience I just named is found repeatedly in the Bible. It is not an experience God is afraid of, >> but one he will fill with his presence, though probably not immediately and probably not in exactly the way you imagine or have known before. But to know God filling your doubt with his presence, deepening faith like it did for Thomas in the most famous story of doubt in scripture, you have to be willing to bring your doubt to God and to wait to return to Thomas. He brought his doubt to God. Unless you meet me here in my pain and disappointment, I will not believe.
¶72And Jesus showed up 8 days later. What is Jesus doing? you are resurrected, bro. You can walk through walls, you know, like why the 8day wait? I don't know, >> you know, but God is not in a hurry to absolve our doubt.
¶73And I think maybe it's because he's letting doubt do its work so that faith >> can do its work. But we have to not be afraid of doubt in the church or in our own lives if faith is going to do that deepening work and if God is going to shine his light even brighter in our darkness. >> Yeah. I think we forget sometimes, don't we, that a third of the psalms are psalms of lament. And not all of them end with, "Oh, but it's okay, God.
¶74I'm going to trust you." Some of them it's like, "No, where are you?" And and it's it ends on that note of despair, doesn't it? >> Yeah. Yeah. So that's what I mean is we have a long history We have canonized literature >> saying this experience is a part of a life of following Jesus. You don't do not have to fear it when you are in it.
¶75What you have to fear is defining everything you know and believe about God by this one experience. >> That is something we don't find on the pages of scripture. M >> but we do find is that God remains faithful through seasons of doubt, disillusionment, disappointment. >> Tyler, what would you say to someone, I know we've talked about this a little bit, but both on and off camera, this sort of growing interest in spirituality, and maybe there's someone listening who is interested in these matters of faith, but doesn't really know what to do next. Maybe they don't know any Christians, maybe they're not aware of a church.
¶76Where would you recommend people go to find out more about God? Oh, I would always recommend that anyone start by interacting directly with the person and teachings of Jesus. And so I would say read the Gospels. Um I I would personally suggest starting with either Matthew or John. And but the Gospels, if you're not familiar, are Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.
¶77They're the four reputable biblical records of the life of Jesus. And then secondly, I would say pray to the person of Jesus and just see what happens. Tyler, you've been through an awful lot in the last few years. Um, just as we round up this interview, why do you personally still believe in God after everything you've been through? Because without God, I don't know how I would make it through any of what I've been through without God.
¶78I fear at where I would look for joy this side of what I've been through. And without God, the story of what I've been through is nonsensical suffering. But with God, it is formation, a portal to intimacy, and a way to grow old and savor my life more fully while I still have a whole lot of it to live. >> And have there been any Bible verses or I guess pictures from God that have sustained you through this time? >> Yeah.
¶79Yeah. the words of the Apostle Paul. I want to know Christ. Yes. To know the power of his resurrection and his sufferings and so attain fullness of life.
¶80That's my translation at least. And I would say going through cancer, I I knew the victorious Savior for a long time, but I I really got to know the suffering servant. and and to meet Jesus suffering next to me is a profound picture of love. I can still see my wife there. I had to sleep in this bed downstairs where I was quarantined cuz one of the drugs I was taking was so toxic that like if any of my sweat were to get on the skin of someone else, they would potentially be like violently ill and vomiting.
¶81So, I couldn't sleep in the same bed or and I can still see my wife lying on the bed next to me talking to me when I couldn't get up or when I had to go lay down there cuz I couldn't sit in the same couldn't sit up upstairs where my family was. I can still see my friend Tim, Peter, Morgan, Andrew, Josh, so many people sitting in this one little metal folding chair that sat next to my chemotherapy infusion chair, many of whom read to me because I've I love to read, but often couldn't keep my eyes open to read. And you know, so many of us grow accustomed to being loved in our strength, loved when we're strong, healthy, alive, full. But man, to be loved when you are weak is so vulnerable and so deep and so formative and so intimate. And so when I met Jesus, the suffering servant, I met Jesus loving me while I was weak.
¶82And that profoundly changed my relationship to God. >> Tina, thank you so much for sharing so honestly and so beautifully. >> Mhm. Yeah. Thank you for the conversation.
¶83You're very good at this. It's really fun to chat with you. >> Bless you. Thank you. That was Tyler Stton, the lead pastor of Bridgetown Church in Portland.
¶84And do join us in a few weeks time for the next edition of Unbelievable, the interview.