¶1Yay, we're live. Okay, welcome everyone to Nerd Church, the place where on Thursdays we talk about um ongoing things in the Catholic Church. Um this week, as we have for the last couple of weeks, the topic of conversation is um Mr. Joe Schmid and his um recent conversion to Christianity. Um as always, Joe's friend R.J.
¶2will be joining me to talk about his conversion. Um unfortunately R.J. is not here right now, so I'm just going to get started on my own and when he gets here, um he will be able to offer his insights and uh that'll be beautiful and exciting. But for now, it's just me. So, um I'm going to get started just to catch up for anyone who is um unfamiliar with Joe Schmid and his work.
¶3Um he is a Catholic um recent returnee to the Catholic Church who is a philosophy graduate student at Princeton University. Um, and he is, and the reason why I'm interested in him is because I think that he is emblematic of a certain group of young men who are attracted to the Catholic Church, which is not entirely a bad thing. um but are attack but are attracted to the Catholic Church because they see it as offering them certainty and they see it as offering them clear answers to their questions. And when they and in the case of Joe and this sort of cohort that is apparently forming at Princeton, there's a tendency to appeal to miracle evidence and direct experience in a way that is um interesting. And the reason why it's interesting is because it is relatively new in um modern Catholicism.
¶4So um we're going to be exper um just seeing what Joe had to say. Um, the last couple of episodes I prefaced his um I prefaced his current statements with uh with appearances that um he had made in the past. Um I'm not doing that today um because I feel like we've gotten enough of a grounding. But what I do want to reiterate is that I don't think that he's grifting. I don't think he changed sides because he wanted to make money.
¶5I don't think he had some kind of a psychotic break. I think that he has been on a particular kind of religious journey since he um was in his mid teens and has ended up where he is now. And that place where he is now is something that I want to talk about because where he is at the moment um that we are at is on pints with Aquinus. So um I am going to get started and um we will keep going. Th this is water sadly.
¶6Um, if I was going to be drinking enough to make the pain go away, that would be unsafe. So, um, let's go. I am going to go into screen sharing and, uh, let's see what Joe had to say when he was on pints with Aquinus. Okay, maybe Christianity is true and there's some kind of like liberal Christianity where like everyone's going to be saved and you know that sort of thing. Um, so I was like, "Okay, yeah, Christianity like 30% chance.
¶7God's existence. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe like 70 80% or something like that." Even >> Okay. Now, you know, the way that he just kind of dismissed, oh yeah, liberal Christianity, yeah, everybody's going to be saved. Um, again, hopefully universalism is on the table for Catholics.
¶8Um, and it's again, it's interesting to me, profoundly interesting to me that he wasn't attracted to those forms of Catholicism. That he wasn't looking just for I want to be Catholic, right? As in, I want to go to mass. I want to be in communion with the Pope. I want to um do all of those things.
¶9Oh, I just got a notification from R.J. He's having a little bit of a technical problem with his mic, but he will be here shortly. Um I'm just going to tell him that is okay and we will see him as soon as he can get on. Um anyway, but that's what's interesting to me is that he wasn't coming back to I it was like he was coming back to the Catholic Church, but he was only interested in coming back to the version of the Catholic Church that he had left. And R.J.
¶10just got here. So I will let him in. Hi RJ. Hi. Can you hear me?
¶11>> Yeah, I can hear you just fine. >> Great. Great. Sorry, it took a while. I was trying to fix my mic.
¶12>> Oh, it that that's totally all right. Um I was just kind of um updating um any new viewers that we might have on the Joe situation. And um I had just started going through the video. Um you can your um your uh camera is off. I don't know if that's on purpose or not.
¶13>> Uh no, it's uh I'm going to turn it on soon. Um >> okay, that's that's fine. >> The stuff. Um >> yeah. >> Yeah, we can start the stuff.
¶14Okay, that's fine. Um, anyway, I just um but I did um want to clarify again that um I had previously described you as someone who had been friends with Joe and I just wanted to make it clear that you are still friends with Joe. >> Yeah. Um and hopefully um you know trying to understand where he's coming from and you know taking his ideas and and I want to make clear you know we are trying to take his ideas seriously and really engage with him. Um, and at least on my part, part of the reason why I'm doing this is because I'm genuinely concerned that he is adopting intellectual positions that are not going to be sustainable in the long run and could end up causing him and other people a great deal of distress.
¶15>> Yeah. >> Yeah. Um, so th this this is not um you know rag on Joe time. This is Joe. We're we we have concerns.
¶16We have questions. We we are asking these questions. So anyway, um I was playing the part of his appearance on Pints with Aquinus um where he was talking about his conversion or reversion, however, um we want to describe it. So um I'm going to just go back into screen sharing. >> Yeah.
¶17>> Okay. So here we go. He is talking about his decision to return to the Catholic Church. Even though I've seen all this stuff, yeah, I just it's a testimony to and I don't want to make light of it. The problem of evil is powerful and it was powerful really psychologically and I had other objections as well, but we we'll circle back to the problem of evil later.
¶18Um, so still haven't met the muse. I'm about 30% confident in Christianity. Super confident that uh Catholicism is false. Um, and we can go through my objections later, but okay. Again, the the the pebbles in the shoe are mounting and mounting and mounting and mounting.
¶19Now, what comes next is probably uh kind of simultaneously eucharistic miracles and Adam Bllye his stigmata case which we'll get to and then Ethan Muse. So, let let's take those in terms. Okay. >> So, Matthew Levana, he's like a Catholic apologist in France. He's talking about like eucharistic nervousness and like Kevin Nonrad is making videos against them and like I'm like okay I should probably check this out because like I'm starting to think Christianity has a really live chance of being true and like I guess this could help me figure out which form of Christianity is true.
¶20I suppose if there are Eucharistic miracles. Um what has your YouTube channel? >> I I I I would just like like to note very quickly here that um that um R.J. and I actually met on the um Kevin Nontradicath um website or or not website but Discord. Um so I just wanted to um make sure that we acknowledge the name check of our mutual friend.
¶21>> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Um and um for people who are interested in um content where someone is doing a really detailed deep dive debunks of some of these Catholic miracle claims. Um I would really suggest checking out Kevin's channel.
¶22Um, and it's sort of interesting to me that Joe ended up not finding them, not finding these arguments um, especially persuasive particularly because the miracles, a lot of the miracles that he is um, claiming prove Catholicism, a lot of them are honestly miracles where there's not a whole lot of really good evidence. Um, for example, um, he's going to be talking about eucharistic miracles and a lot of those turn out to be mold. They just do. Um, and actually in um sometime in the next month, I'm going to be um having a biologist um Dr. Jay Bundy um will hopefully be coming on the channel and really be talking about you know the mold issues and what science can and cannot tell us about the supernatural.
¶23But the thing is is that this skeptical attitude towards Eucharistic miracles is actually very Catholic because um currently um right now in um I I I I I want to say it's Colombia, but I don't remember off the top of my head. There's been a eucharistic miracle, a possible eucharistic miracle reported and currently it's off at a lab being tested and it's not going to be exposed for veneration until they've made sure that it's not mold. So the fact that a lot of these eucharistic miracles turn out to be mold is something that the Catholic Church is well aware of and tries to investigate. So the idea that he's like, "Oh, there are all these eucharistic miracles and they're completely nonproatic and we can just believe them." is just it's such like it's such a strange like from a Catholic point of view this is a really strange argument. Um, and it and that's, you know, really a lot of why I'm doing this series is just to kind of investigate like, you know, what is going on in the intellectual world of these particular Catholics that all of a sudden Eucharistic miracles are like the thing.
¶24>> Yeah. >> Okay. So anyway, I am going to just um hit play again look like right now or as you're going through this I mean you have to post are you posting videos? >> Yeah, I am posting videos. So like I'm doing stuff on a video with Brian Cutter on psychophysical and nomological harmony.
¶25I'm doing videos on um like metaphysics. I'm doing videos on philosophy of mind. Like why dualism is true, why the mind is not reducible to the brain. >> You know, one thing we never addressed that we should address now is why you haven't gone public about your conversion until now. Oh, do you want to address that now?
¶26>> Well, just I think it's important because my next question was going to be like were you playing the skeptic in these videos to plate your audience since the since you wanted to keep your conversion close to the chest? How were you navigating these discussions without coming out like a >> So this is this is where this is post conversion what I'm doing. >> Well, no. Well, yeah, I guess so. >> We're sort of in the sort of investigation.
¶27>> Yeah. Yeah. Um >> Yeah. Yeah. Postcon conversion.
¶28Post. >> Why is it you didn't choose to announce it right away? I needed at least 6 months of the sacramental life of the church under my belt before I was ready for the spiritual attacks and the flack that I would get from my LGBT friends, my atheist friends, my agnostic friends, and various things like that. >> And I just I just wasn't ready for a public defense of the faith. I was like a new revert.
¶29>> I need to receive the Eucharist. >> Um R.J. since um you're in his social circles um much more than I am and probably you know much more than our audience is um do you think that he's been getting a lot of flak in his personal life? So I think that uh I mean from me he did kind of >> like get some I guess because I was like um yo what's this right um when he when he announced his uh uh conversion I guess um because even I didn't know before he dropped his first video publicly right uh but I did get some hints of it, I guess, like because um I was already reading Ethan Muse um because like Matthew Adelstein recommended him um like much before um Joe announced his conversion. I I think Joe also found Ethan around the time uh when Ethan wrote his first article uh and it was like public.
¶30Maybe that's how Joe also found Ethan, but I found Ethan from his first public article. That's for sure. And uh I was already criticizing Ethan Muse for uh his uh I mean uh immediately I didn't criticize Ethan Muse uh I was just like let's I guess wait until there are there is more back and forth there is more discussion people who are like um experts or like people who know this stuff more they will comment on this stuff. And uh then Ethan Muse eventually became more public. Um he um made videos with Matt Fred, with uh Cameron Buzzi and he was just going around multiple uh YouTube channels debating, discussing stuff and uh I found his methodology to be very bad.
¶31very very bad. And it's like um like um a month and a half before Joe made his video public, I emailed him um Ethan Muse's u mistakes, very major, very big mistakes. So for example, at one point Ethan Muse called a modern critical Bible scholarship as writing fanfiction. >> Fanfiction. Um yeah and then he had a debate with a Mormon and he just um used a pmical source uh around the time of Joseph Smith.
¶32Uh so um contemporary of Joseph Smith who wrote a pmical source and that was his only source at least as far as I remember. Um that >> and how and how did Joe respond though when you um you know mention these like criticisms and again you you weren't like attacking Ethan you know as a as a person or anything like that. you were just saying, you know, these are some actual factual errors he's making. What was his >> Yeah, I mean, in that in that email, I did did criticize and attack Ethan because like by that time he did three things that I believed were um two of them were like um I guess intellect intellectual and I don't like to separate emotion and intellectual. >> Yeah.
¶33But don't do that. But the two things were like the critical Bible scholarship blunder and the Mormon debate blunder where he's like he just read that 19th or 19th century pmic. I mean like that's not modern historioggraphy on like Joseph >> right and yeah exactly and certainly if you want to find you know mo good modern scholarship that is extremely skeptical of you know for example you know everything relating to Joseph Smith's Smith's visions that those resources are certainly out there. >> Yeah. Yeah.
¶34But you know, but you need to be fair. >> Yeah, you need to be fair, right? Like the he would not do this thing for Catholics. >> Yeah. >> So it's and uh the third thing was like vast majority of people going to eternal hell.
¶35Um so that was the thing that was like okay so this this guy is like uh insane like and how how how easily um without much emotion he was communicating all that stuff all that all that dark stuff and >> so I mean I I in the email I listed all this and said to Joe like look this dude uh is not trustworthy this dude this dude sounds like a psycho he's a psychopath or something. Uh, and Joe did not reply to that email at all. He did not respond at all to that email. >> Um, so there's that. >> Yeah.
¶36And and it it's it just it's it's just it's so odd to me that he was, you know, again, that he was so worried about this. And it it's just it's so odd to me that he is so comfortable being in the closet about what he believes and what he thinks. But anyway, let let let's go back to his conversion story >> on like a regular basis. I need to go to confessions to heal like all my past sins, you know. Um I needed to get your prayer life in order.
¶37>> I need to get my prayer life in order. I need to, you know, pray the rosary every day, that sort of thing. I needed to do my fasting and mortification. I needed to do um penences and whatnot. You know, I needed to get all my ducks in order spiritually before I was ready to go public and defend the faith publicly.
¶38Okay. But in the time that you converted to when you make your announcement, um how are you navigating your conversations on your YouTube channel? You don't want to come out as a theist. You presumably don't want to spread the error of atheism. So, how are you what are you doing?
¶39Are you just posting less or? Um so I I did post a little bit less. I am posting things that are I mean for instance I did one video just on like the nomological harmony argument which is the one where I said like the fundamental dynamical laws match the content of the univer universe and I gave like the rule book analogy and you know it's really striking that like if you just had a randomized rulebook and a randomized game board that they would match each other such that the rules actually tell those particular game pieces how to go. It's really striking. So I just get made like a video on that and I didn't actually come out and say that I was a theist at the time and that I was even Catholic at the time.
¶40I just made the video. I'm like I was exploring it, you know, and I'm just presenting the argument. I'm just saying like and here's how one might object and here's how one might do this. Um, and that's basically how I carried myself, you know. I went on Miles Donahghue's podcast, um, the uncertainty podcast.
¶41We talked about the fine tuning argument. And I told him in the email, didn't tell him why. I just said, "You are not to call me an agnostic. You are not to call me an atheist. You are not to call me anything." >> We were just going to talk about the fine tuning argument and why it's so amazing in all of its beautiful glory.
¶42So, okay, >> I just did that sort of thing, you know, and I just I didn't really touch on it and, you know, um so we we should return to this, but I struggle with script velocity, Matt. >> I really struggle and we should return to that. >> Um, thank you. >> Can you pause that because I think um >> yeah, >> there is something important I wanted to say here. >> Yes.
¶43>> So, um notice that he's like, you are not to call me this, you're not to call me that, and stuff like that. Like so Joe given his traditionalist Catholicism cannot even you know tell noble lies right because they're like intrinsically impermissible. >> Yeah. So it's like uh it would it would basically be I think hard to even work with him, right? Like because he he is just uh um not even going to tell like um some small noble lies or something.
¶44Um it's it's like um like can he if he be if he becomes an actor or something would he be able to become an actor? >> It's like Yeah. And and it it's in and it's funny that he says that and then immediately follows it up with, you know, but I struggle what but I struggle with scrupulosity. And um >> yeah, >> for for the benefit of um anybody who in who might be watching this who's not as familiar with the Catholic Church, scrupulosity is actually regarded as a sin and is regarded as um you know something that um a lot that priests are trained to look out for, especially when um they're providing spiritual direction, when they're having people that come to confession. And scrupulosity is basically when people become like overly obsessed and overly nitpicky and overly strict, not with other people, but with their own religious practice, right?
¶45So um for example um I'm trying to think of an example. Okay, say for example that someone is in the habit of praying the rosary every day, right? Well then for something happens and they skip praying the rosary on one particular Tuesday, right? Well, that's not something that they're required to do, right? That's just like a pious practice that they've adopted as a habit.
¶46And the fact that they didn't that they missed that particular Tuesday, but they still did it on Monday, they did it on Wednesday, they did it on Thursday. That isn't sinful. So if the person goes and they said, "Oh, I'm ha, you know, I'm having this spiritual crisis. You know, I I missed my Tuesday rosary. Am I going to hell?" The priest would be like, "Calm down.
¶47Calm down. You know, this is, you know, this is okay." or um you know or um you know when someone is like you know I they're they're so worried about um you know avoiding near occasions of sin that like they don't go to their cousins birthday party, right? Even though you know like people are just going to be sitting around at a barbecue but there might be an atheist at the party so they can't attend that is you know th those are examples of scrupulosity and the fact that Joe is aware that he struggles with scrupulosity but at the same time is also, you know, willing to indulge that scrupulosity. >> Sorry to interrupt. Hey, Katie.
¶48Um, I I think I'm hearing dogs. >> Yeah, you are hearing dogs. Um, one of my kids just got home, so the the dogs were being noisy in the background. I I apologize. I I was hoping >> it's fine.
¶49I was just, you know, telling you in case. Yeah, that no they they they've calmed down now. But that thank you for letting me know. Um but anyway, oh our our friends from the um Leantius Institute are here. Excellent.
¶50Um anyway, um but but the point is is that Joe knows he struggles with scrupulosity and so you would think that he would go, you know, maybe it's, you know, okay to, you know, tell, you know, to shade the truth and not to like outright lie to someone in a harmful way, but you know, You you can if your mom puts a plate of food in front of you and maybe it's a little bit burnt, you can sit there and say, "Yep, this is really good." just >> I mean yeah like during during birthdays right someone's birthday and you want to surprise them pleasantly um um like I think that that is a time where you can tell noble lies right you can and it's um so but like given his I think traditionalist Catholicism it's like he's like no lying is like intrinsically wrong no matter the context noatter matter what. >> Yeah. Although to be clear, um I wouldn't actually describe Joe as a traditional Catholic. Um he's definitely very conservative in his Catholicism, >> but he hasn't like he and he's definitely like tradition adjacent, but he's not like but he hasn't like adopted some of the like um rec some of the positions where he's like overtly advocating for people to ignore the pope. Yeah.
¶51I mean, yeah. He's not straight of >> a captist. >> Yeah. Yeah. And and and he's not obsessed with the Latin mass, you know.
¶52He he hasn't >> like like he he's definitely like, you know, he he is on the road that heads towards the tradition, the trad fever swamp, but he is still not, you know, he he but he is definitely very conservative. >> Yeah. Very. Yeah. >> Yeah.
¶53>> So, I just I was paralyzed. What am I supposed to do with this channel? >> Is it a sin to keep the videos up? Should I delete the channel? Should what what do I need to do?
¶54And so, I need I had to thankfully I have good confessors and spiritual directors in my life. Like, um, Father Miners, I absolutely love you. You're my hero, Father Miners. And Father Zach at Princeton, you're my hero. Uh, priests are my heroes at this point, but they know the scrupulous heart.
¶55And so basically um I took down the ones that I think are were the most scandalous. So I had some where I think they were very scandalous. I had one arguing like against natural law theory where I I just think it's way too scandalous. I had one where I like just very vigorously defended like an argument for atheism and divineness and whatnot. So I I thought that was too scandalous.
¶56And for for all the others that presented anything contrary to the Catholic faith basically I went and I put in the description and in a pinned comment um I did this in March of this year. I said like, "Hey, um, my views have changed since then, but this represented my views at the time. Don't infer anything about my current views." And I just left it at that. And dude, I'm getting all these emails. Dude, I'm getting all these emails, these messages.
¶57Oh, Joe, what happened? Why can you elaborate? I'm like, "No, I can't elaborate. What are you talking about?" And people are commenting like, "What happened? What happened?" I'm getting messages like, "Are you a theist now?
¶58Are you?" And just getting all these messages. I'm like, >> "Sorry, bro." Um, >> wow. >> So, that's kind of that kind of what happened. >> There is a lie that we believe when we fall into >> Yeah. you know this I was going to tell you to pause because this was a very you know just uh it's just dark right because like that's his intellectual work uh he like he took down videos like it's not like he's an artist right and uh um or or maybe like a a comedian or something who's like making fun of the church or something blaspheming or something um it's actually intellectual argument ments, right?
¶59And rigorous in intellectual arguments and he's just he just deleted them because it was like scandalous. It's just very, you know, dark, very alarming to me. >> Yeah. And and it re and I mean I I can on the one hand I can understand you know not wanting to have information published that you don't agree with anymore you know because I mean certainly you know um academics will sometimes retract papers or something like that. Um it retraction seems to be extremely rare though.
¶60I think like if if someone like wrote say a paper in like 2004 >> um >> and like 10 or 15 years later they said like just remove that paper like I mean I I have not heard retractions >> happening in like peer-reviewed journals this way. Um this is it has to be very rare you know like um very massive. >> Yeah. Yeah. And and and it generally when something like that happens, it's because um somebody's like, I made an actual error of fact.
¶61>> Yeah. Yes. >> You know. >> Yeah. um you know or but I think that it would be it to me it would have been more interest it it would have been more valuable if he had presented the argument and then you know even just responded to his own video >> and presented the counterargument.
¶62And I really wonder if um Yes. Yeah. Um somebody brought Yeah. retraction is usually done where Yeah. when there's like fraud or a significant error in argumentation or like an actual error of fact, right?
¶63>> Yeah. >> So like for example, I know someone who um uh Dr. Kip Davis, who um was hired by the Museum of the Bible to do work on the Dead Sea on what they thought at the time were Dead Sea Scroll fragments. And actually um before he had an opportunity to really like examine the physical fragments where they just had the transcription of the text had written about the text and then once it turned out that they were frauds then that book was withdrawn because he later found out oh you know you could have said interesting things about you know the the what was written on these fragments, but now we know it was fake. So, and then Bril actually with pulled the entire book.
¶64>> But that but that's literally the level in academia of like this >> retraction. For retraction Yeah. >> Yeah. For for retraction. It's not, oh, I changed my mind.
¶65>> Yeah. you know, it's not like, oh, I changed my mind because, you know, part of being a scholar and part of being intellectually honest is saying I thought that something was true and I now have realized that that was not true >> and I'm going to go back. So it so yeah, I mean it it is kind of disturbing that he felt the urge to um um you know that that that his thing was you know I have to burn this you know I have to destroy it. >> Yeah. This was a it was like you know someone destroying uh their books or like papers they published right uh in the past.
¶66Um it's it's it's very it's it's a scary thing to hear from him and and the thing is his reasoning against that that again his reasoning for deleting those videos were like oh it will be a scandal and and now I believe sorry go ahead go ahead >> I'm sorry yeah and and like you said when he's saying oh this could be a scandal it's almost like he's saying I still think that this argument holds up intellectually And and I don't want anyone to be convinced of something that I don't believe is true just because I can make a a a consistent argument for it. >> Yeah. In fact, I think I think he he acknowledges this. He he says like um I still have those intuitions that look queer actions are not wrong. Innocuous queer actions are not wrong.
¶67um just being an agnostic, just being an atheist is not wrong. You are not culpable. But the magisterium, you know, I submit my will and intellect to the magisterium. So, um that's it. Like he literally say says that that he doesn't have a counterarguments to that older content.
¶68>> Yeah, exactly. It it's just, you know, I don't believe that because I can't believe that. >> Yeah. >> Because I'm not allowed to believe that anymore. Um I'm terribly sorry.
¶69I need to run to the restroom. Um I'm going to um hit play um really quickly and so that we can have something to respond to when I get back. >> Yeah. Sure. >> I'm just playing devil's daddy because I remember I debated like a on Facebook and I'll I put this in my um conversion video that people should definitely go and check out.
¶70Um this the hours long conversion video. It's out by now. People are watching it. >> Maria, we will link to it. >> Okay, sweet.
¶71Um so I was basically examining these Eucharistic miracles. I went on I talked with Matthew Levana. I talked with um the skeptics of the Eucharistic miracles. I read the best skeptics, the best arguments for it. I watched videos on it.
¶72I started kind of engaging in debates and whatnot with like Protestant scientists on Facebook and whatnot, like very extensive back and forth debates. The um so I started just like thinking about these uh and Matthew Levan was like, "Joe, you've been thinking about this stuff. Um pick up Dr. Franco Saraphini's book, A Cardiologist Examines Jesus." I was like, "Okay, fine. I'll pick it up." Um and so I pick it up and I read it and I'm like, as I'm going through it, I'm like, "Oh my gosh, oh no." And I remember I remember going through it and I was like by the end I was like oh no Catholicism might be true that's not good that's not good so like I can tell you some of the things that I sort of discovered when I was looking through that.
¶73So like he goes through five eucharistic miracles. Laiano, Buenos, Cyrus, Dla, Sukoka, Leita, different continents, different time periods. Laiano goes back. So the kind of historioggraphy is a little bit like patchy for the first some hundreds of years. It goes back to like roughly.
¶74>> Okay. So again, he's talking about these miracles and he's talking about like the most debunkable miracles, right? um like the the the in the video he just recently talked about uh oh no Catholicism might be true because I I want people to notice that thing because it's like the way he's thinking about Catholicism and even I think now he thinks about Catholicism is like a kind of a cancerous disease or something a dark a dark fact right oh no Catholicism might be True. I mean it's like like if you believe in God and if you believe in in in a triom being right omni benevalent omni potent shouldn't you be be very happy that it's it's a wonderful good news. Right.
¶75>> Right. But it but it but it's and and that and that to me is what is so interesting about so many of these conservative Catholics and traditional Catholics as well is that they always they always want to talk about, you know, how hard it is to be Catholic and how much you have to give up and and all of this kind of thing. And I mean, you know, and I can tell you like when you live in um, you know, when you live in a majority Christian country, like being a Christian is the easiest thing to be. It's the most comfortable thing to be. It's I I I mean, it just is.
¶76And the fact that he was viewing this as, you know, you know, this is going to be this big struggle for me. And they talk about, oh, I have to give up so much. And it's like the only thing that he's given up is like being concerned that other people might go to hell. >> Yeah. You know, it's like it's like it has cost him personally almost nothing and interestingly um it's the so the thing is like one of I think I said in the discord chat um where like so I personally think actual saintly behavior is a behavior of someone of a normal person.
¶77Average normal person who is not an aesthetic monastic or like um um um some kind of like hermit you know just doing self-sacrifice and nothing else contributing nothing to society. Um, basically they have this intellect. They are very smart. They could have been like an an oncologist, a a neurosurgeon or something. Um, a a a heart doctor or like a very good engineer or a historian.
¶78Historian. Well, and and and the thing is though is that very often though people that are interested what what's interesting though is that very often people who are the most interested in this very interior contemplative kind of life are also the people who when they see injustice going on in the world or when they see suffering going on in the world are finding ways to be active to relieve that suffer. suffering and to take care of people. >> Yeah. Yeah.
¶79I mean they they kind of Yeah, they do that. They certainly do that. But the issue is more like they're not that effective, right? if they are like just um being in a small solitary confinement or something and doing just just you know worshiping God because I mean I guess that's just my personal theology maybe but it's just like to me like look to create technology to create medical to create medicine to even create like a music album I I think that's better than than just um um being being a monastic or something. And for Joe and like Ethan Muse uh St.
¶80Padre Peio, Teresa of Aila and all these saints, Catholic saints of course um they're like these uh holiest of the holy people. But for me it's like >> can you count how many lives they have saved? Can you tell me the results? >> Right? Even if they just saved five or seven lives, >> someone else saved probably thousands, right?
¶81Um during that time. >> So it's like >> Yeah. So, it's um it's just it's just not really um I'm just sad about Joe what happened to him. >> Yeah. Somebody brought up that you know it probably has damaged his relationships with some people at Princeton.
¶82Um and you know and that may be true you know um >> but on the other hand >> I I don't know like the to to me the the the friends that you make in grad school and you know like those kinds of you know sort of professional or you know not really professional but it's like you know them because you go to the same college those kinds of relationships are often they're very important at the time, but they're often they are somewhat transitory. >> Yeah. Yeah. You should mention though um his co-authors um I I know that his co-authors um a few of them or some of them are actually angry at Joe. um like they are disappointed significantly disappointed at Joe or um like I I I talked with them personally privately.
¶83>> Okay. So they have said that's fair. So that's fair. So so it really so so to some degree it is true that in his very specific discipline this is going to have some effect on him. >> Yeah.
¶84But at the same time, I don't know to and and maybe this is me just not being generous enough. Um um I would um you know, I I I would say that I I I don't know. It it to me it seems like the amount of importance he's placing on what this has cost him versus, you know, the fact that he gained like 20,000 followers even with people unsubscribing. It's kind of like he lost some relationships and he gained other relationships that are benefiting him in a lot of the same ways. >> Um I would say benefiting him just monetarily.
¶85>> Yeah. >> More like right now his most recent videos of Catholic conversion and like defending Catholic uh miracles and stuff they got the most views. they uh he got much many more Patreon subscribers right just within few days just within these few weeks so it's like just monetarily >> he is um much in a much better state than he was when he just made um agnostic or yeah agnostic content basically right so it's and like he he already has had like Cameron Berthusi, Ethan Muse, and like now Matt Fred, I guess. Um, and like they so I mean and it's uh it's a good gig for for conservatives, you know, to be on YouTube and just uh um keep doing this these things even though they have like in the literature being like um just totally fringe or like considered to be refuted in the literature but um it's for for the conservatives on YouTube. It's it's a good gig, you know.
¶86It's a good money making uh thing. Um so, um yeah. >> Okay, I'm going to hit play so that we can see what else he has to say. >> Yeah, the seventh or 8th century. Um but the providence of the relics here are very secure from like I think the 16th century onward.
¶87Um, and we have like references and whatnot to it in like earlier middle middle ages and whatnot. Ethan Muse goes through this in his um post on Lana, which is excellent. He, you know, he talked about that in your interview. But anyway, um, that one is insane. Like, uh, Dr.
¶88Eduardo Lenoli looks at it in the 1970s and then again in the 1980s. He's he determines through lots of different chemical tests that it's real human flesh that is there with no preservatives. Um, I just want to point out, and again, this is something that will be addressed in a later episode, but everything that that he's saying is is are issues that have been um very that that have been disputed that um this particular that the particular investigator who's looking at these miracles has been um has had other people go back and look at his data and say that the data and the interpretation are both that that that his methodology was flawed and that there are problems with the lab report. Um, so the point is is that and also I would note that Joe doesn't appear to have really um gone back to the primary sources and he doesn't really appear to have um taken the c you know the the counter evidence into account with this. He's basically believing his friend Ethan, which >> you know again like and Ethan is sort of believing the people that are coming up with these like you know um extremely credulous and I would argue in some cases actually pseudocientific investigations of miracle claims >> and Ethan didn't even believe these Uh sorry, Ethan didn't even convert because of these miracles.
¶89Um he actually converted much before he wrote these uh um articles um of miracles. >> Um so it's like um like look man, the dude already became Catholic much earlier before he started writing on this uh miracle stuff. So it's like he he is already going to now be um what I would consider have a conflict of interest if if the miracles do are do not like if if if the research is so rigorous that uh the miracles are found to be like a like a nothing burger or like just dumb, right? It is not within his interest. >> Yeah.
¶90And and again, you know, if you're going to believe miracle claims, why are you specifically looking at like the most debated, the most like the the the the most debunked, the most disproven miracle claims. you know, it it it it really it's almost to me the same way that um evangelical Christians will insist that you have to believe in young earth creationism because if you don't believe in a literal six day creation as written in Genesis, possibly with a hopping snake, um because the snake doesn't crawl on its belly yet, that somehow how you've got to throw out everything in the whole Bible. And they're kind of doing the same. And and this is what concerns me about this um about this um you know attachment to um miracles is that ultimately they're basing their entire belief system on falsifiable science. And I'm sorry, but that ain't good.
¶91Um it's I I would say though to push back a little bit on that like um like if if you if you base your beliefs on say some very um what I would say very established sciences right um then it's I guess it's not that uh implausible to base your beliefs on empirical science that way right like let's just say you know Um imagine if uh we experienced angels and gods uh the way we experience like cars or something in our world. That's the kind of regular um this evidence of uh life this evidence of gods and uh angels becomes right like Marvel Avengers or something you know. >> Yeah. Well, yeah. >> Yeah.
¶92But but but at the same time, you know, there there's this element of you're supposed to have faith, right? You know, I it's like, you know, when it talks about Thomas examining the wounds, right? It's better to have believed and not seen. M >> and he wants to have this certain based on science rather than a certainty that's based on faith and you know and certainly it's not unreasonable you know for example I would never criticize someone who's like I am not going to believe in a literal six day creation because you know scientifically it just doesn't work like that to me is a legitimate reason for ruling out certain possibilities but at the same time you can't say you know if this particular eukaristic miracle is not true then that disproves God And that's and and that's the flip side of saying this eukaristic miracle is true therefore God exists. >> And I'm going to hit play again.
¶93>> He determines that there these little like blood globules. They're just like exposed to the air. This is the most like fragile biological material on the planet. in these blood globules in the open air in like the Italian climate and they they've just like existed there and persisted for hundreds of years. He does tests on the blood type.
¶94They're both AB blood rarest type in the world. Sorry, they're both like AB. Yeah, the rarest blood type in the world. This is insane. Like, and then the preservation, utterly unprecedented preservation.
¶95Um, with like especially if you don't use preservatives, like if you cut out a human heart because it is myocardium. He was able to tell by the way that the fibers are aligned and by the like the um macular features of the um macroscopic features of the relic and whatnot. Um if you take a human heart and try to pass it off as a relic, it's going to be the most disgusting putrid thing after a few days. You don't even get that kind of preservation. If you put it in like amazing conditions in like like a fridge for instance, it's going to be putrid.
¶96But no, it's lasted hundreds of years. Hundreds of years. Utterly unprecedented. uh preservation. It's just and Ethan goes through tons of reasons why it's not naturalistically explicable on his on his um substack post.
¶97Um so like that's already kind of insane. And of course like we you know skeptics they'll try to pinpoint like all these this is another thing I kept on seeing a pattern in skeptical responses to miracles where they're just trying to like pinpoint peripheral anomalies and like minor embarrassments for the miracles but they're not actually addressing the core data. >> Like we do have a good prominence for at least hundreds of years. So what's your explanation for hundreds of years for this preservation and like also the way that the the providence of the artifacts the way that they were cut um like basically would be overwhelmingly difficult if not impossible for um a forer in um the middle ages to do. Ethan goes through that as well on his post.
¶98So like, oh, >> and again, these are all assertations that Ethan is making that Ethan does not have the scientific training to evaluate these miracles. >> Exactly. Exactly. And Joe, although he has, you know, some college work in um, you know, he does have some college work in um, biology. um you know he does you know he didn't go down you know I'm sure that you know Princeton has I'm sure a very fine biology department and he didn't go down to the biology department and say hey guys like do you mind like you know walking me through this lab report and seeing um what and see um what's going on, you know.
¶99And again, nobody's claiming that these miracles are fake, you know. They're just saying that there's probably some kind of an alternative naturalistic explanation. Um which, you know, in the case of a lot of eucharistic miracles turns out to be mold. Okay. Any I'm gonna hit play >> already.
¶100Even Liano is just insane. And then you go to all these other Eucharistic miracles and it's like we have laboratory analyses, blinded laboratory analyses like with Tik Tow. We have pictures of like the priest at the mass. So um basically a sister was you know distributing communion at the mass and she looks down and one of them during mass has this like red kind of congealed kind of seeming like blood on it. She's like, "Okay, this is weird." She goes up and takes it to um the father at the mass.
¶101And he kind of holds it up in front of the the audience and says like, and they thought they thought at the time that it was a miracle. Uh and you know, we got pictures of it. We have like I think it's like 17 signed like sworn testimony about like this event. Um and then they basically send they take off little bits of it, the Eucharist and the the little blood spots or whatever. And they send it to um two laboratories blinded.
¶102They both determine that it's AV blood. They see that there's myoproxidase and glyophorin A which are characteristic of lucasytes and red blood cells. They do tests for human hemoglobin and they come back positive. >> Yes. again, it could still be mold and they are and and um you know and and and that's why I'm you know going to be bringing a biologist on the channel.
¶103Um >> yeah. >> Yeah. And you know again like the people doing these investigations in many cases are Catholic, >> you know. Yeah. >> And and they are not hostile to the possibility of these being eucharistic miracles, but the fact of the matter is they aren't.
¶104And I mean, and you could even be because the point is is that the Eucharistic miracle isn't supposed to be required for belief. You're just supposed to understand that when because the the reason why these Eucharistic miracles are important is because Catholics believe that the consecrated host really is Jesus, right? The accident, the outward appearance does not change, but the substance, what the thing really is, changes. So by insisting that there has to be some kind of a physical change, >> he's basically arguing that the miracle that happens every day isn't good enough. >> That he has to have this extra miracle.
¶105>> Yeah. >> Yeah. And and like I say, from a Catholic point of view, th this is just th this this gets very problematic very quickly. Okay, I I'm going to skip a little bit ahead just because I don't want to spend um a whole lot of time on his specific miracle claims in part just because they aren't even his claims. >> Yeah.
¶106And you know, these these are his friend Ethan's claims. >> Yeah. And uh I should mention like the way um you you know the way you can uh frame this stuff like the way he's saying we have this we have this we have blinded uh um experiments or something blinded empirical evidence and I'm like um or blinded studies on this like you can make a sort of lawyer like case right but that's um But if if you like when people actually go and examine in detail that one specific thing and now on you if you are on Substack KD you would see that there have been many responses. >> Yeah. And one of Joe's own source I think skeptasmic um Kevin non tried interviewed her um I think a month ago and uh she she she wrote a detailed blog post criticizing Joe Schmid on like Bueno airs miracle um in like Argentina or something ukaristic miracle there and it was so detailed Um it's like I kind of felt bad for Joe.
¶107>> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I I mean people have been in you know people have looked at these and you know and again the version and it's always interesting to me though that the version that Joe is giving is clearly this is not the skeptical argument. This isn't even the primary source argument.
¶108This is the like smoothed out, buffed out, polished up, you know, I am going to tell you this story in a way that will convince you argument. >> Yeah. Yeah. And that's just not >> um you know and and that's just not reasonable especially when again you know we know for a fact that there are certain molds that will pop positive as human AB blood. like this is a known thing that certain kinds of molds will do.
¶109So now that we know that now not only do you have to test now everybody knows that not only do you have to test for blood but you also have to check for is it mold. >> Yep. >> Anyway, so I I'm going to what else does he have to say? >> And I just we can't agree. And I say, "Dude, what would it take to convince you, Martin Luther or Calvin?" And I could we could imagine them jokingly saying, "Okay, here's what here's what will convince me of the Catholic view." Five different times on different continents, a priest prays over some bread and it turns into suffering myioardial tissue.
¶110Okay. Oh, and yeah, have that happen on different continents. Oh, and when they do blood tests, have it be AB blood on across multiple eucharistic miracles because that's the rarest blood type. Okay. Okay.
¶111Across multiple uterus meals have the ab blood. Owen. Yeah. Make the blood type match the Sudarium of Odo and the Shroud of Turin. Make that happen too.
¶112>> Okay. The Sudarium of Oeddo and the Shroud of Turin have both been tested for blood. Guess what they didn't find? Guess what they didn't find? Oh, yeah.
¶113They didn't find blood. I I mean so again you know he is you know he's chosen to believe pseudocience and he's choosing to spread pseudocience because you know and ultimately he wants people to accept transubstantiation not because transubstantiation is the best model to explain how Christ is really present in the eukarist using like platonic philosophy as your model, right? Because I you know because I can say like you know if your brain is cooked in middle platonism and you have to explain a mechanism by which Jesus could be really present in the eukarist in terms of platonism transubstantiation is a perfectly fine model. You know, you could also, but ultimately it's like you're either believing that transubstantiation is possible because it makes sense or you're believing in falsifiable eucharistic miracles. And the key word here is falsifiable.
¶114Oh, and put in some put in some human blood as well. Some uh human hemoglobin and that as well. Put put that in. >> We would think that they're joking because that's like an unrealistic demand. Like Yeah, you guys.
¶115Okay, you're you're only going to become convinced when it happens like multiple times across M. It should also be mentioned that both Martin Luther and John Calvin were aware of multiple reports of eucharistic miracles like >> was David Hume. >> Yeah, exactly. I mean there were eucharistic miracles that happened like in Europe in the Middle Ages and in the Renaissance. Um, you know, including one where somebody found an entire like who who somebody literally reported finding the entire dead body of Jesus and when they went back to like remove, you know, and then when they and witnesses went back to, you know, collect the body of this deceased man, all that was there was a host.
¶116>> Right. >> Yeah. And >> yeah, >> just just about David David Hume, I want to I guess clarify. What I mean is that it it might not necessarily be like ukaristic miracle that David Hume knew, but I think he did know that uh ampute miracle. I've seen um and and David Yung commented on it.
¶117I think Kip Davis uh and uh um her name I think Ashanti right >> Vishanti >> oh Vishanti Vishanti sorry sorry sorry Vishanti and Kip um like made a video on on that and and like just reading that part of Hume um and it was it was beautiful you know David Hume was like >> really ahead of time you Yeah. Yeah. But but that's the point is that Luther and Calvin were both aware of Eucharistic miracles. >> It's it it it's also worth pointing out that Luther although he rejected transubstantiation did not actually reject the real presence. um instead he came up with consubstantiation which is like it's like transubstantiation but slightly different.
¶118Um yeah, thank you uh Dr. for confirming that Hume found it unconvincing because yeah, like the whole leg no leg thing could very easily have been explained by fraud. I I mean like let us not forget um that there's this um book um that's considered it's one of the classics of micro history. Um, it was also made into a movie um called The Return of Martin Guerrer, which was this known case that happened in France where this guy took off on his to took off on his family um apparently to be a mercenary in Spain and then a second guy came back to the village and was like, "Hi, I'm Martin. Everybody in the village agreed that that yeah, that was Martin, including Martin's wife who lived with this guy for seven years and had multiple children with him.
¶119Um, and then it wasn't until there was a lawsuit and between the wife and Martin's uncle over some family property that it came out that this was not the guy. So, we know for a fact that this is a time in human history where impersonating someone is pretty easy to do. >> So, it's like, you know, so it's like it could have been, you know, did this guy have a brother who looked like him? You know, was there a cousin? >> Yeah.
¶120>> You know, I mean, that resembled this guy. Um, you know, I mean, I imagine that, you know, probably in, you know, rural Italian villages, you know, that there's were probably a lot of people that looked kind of a, you know, that looked kind of alike, right? Enough that if you went to the do to the same doctor five years later and said, "Hi, I'm this guy." He'd be like, "Yeah, that looks like him. Oh, wow. It's a miracle." You know, people commit fraud.
¶121it. People in the past lied. People in the past committed fraud. We know they did. >> Yeah.
¶122And uh interestingly I should mention like um regarding since David Hume came up um one of uh the Substackers um mentioned this and I also like tried to you know use like Google and like GPT and like a bunch of uh uh AIS on like medium medium to high thinking with search function on about regarding Joe's u so I I got the transcript of Joe's defense of like miracles and in the transcript he cites like Hume uh and I I I thought okay what what literature on Hume does Joe cite right and it's just that one guy John Airman um and um probably some other guy Tim Mcgru Tim Mcgru is like a theist Christian and and he's and then there's John and John like wrote that criticism of Hume a long time ago and multiple Humeian scholars responded to him heavily criticizing his work John Earman's work and Joe does not site or mention the later Hume scholars at all who criticized Earman uh heavily criticized and and these are mainstream scholars not fringe right not fringe >> and it's like it's He his his methodology epistemology has visibly become terrible. >> Terrible. Well, it it's like B basically it's like >> to me it just it really feels like he decided that he the only conclusion that I can come to is that he wanted on some on an emotional level wanted to believe that the religion that he was ra the the the the type of Catholicism that he was raised with was crew. And when somebody threw him a rope in the form of these miracle claims, he grabbed onto it. Um, and yeah, so so, so let's just keep going.
¶123Let's see what else is here. Multiple different continents and blinded laboratory tests find that like, yeah, priest prays over some bread and it turns into suffering myioardial tissue. Um, and it's like, yeah, it's like the rarest baby blood type across the multiple eucharistic miracles and it happens to match the shroud and the ovado. Like, that's your demand, Martin Luther Calvin. That's what it's going to take to to to believe.
¶124You're joking, right? Well, Matt, it happened. It happened. It happened. Their view has been refuted.
¶125God has refuted Protestantism. >> So, will you read the book? >> So, no. You close the book. >> Sleeping at this.
¶126No, no. I'm just like >> again, Lutheran believe in the real presence. Joe probably doesn't know this because Joe's knowledge of church history not that great. >> No, no, no. I closed the book and I'm not yet convinced.
¶127Right. Because it I don't know. I'm very um >> I'm very cautious. Like it takes a lot to convince me. >> Yeah.
¶128Uh so I but at this point I'm like I don't know. I'm a little bit scared. >> Yeah. >> Uh Catholicism is true. Like how could Catholicism be true?
¶129Uh and even now like I still think okay maybe Christianity is like 40% probable. Maybe Catholicism is like 2% probable or something. Like I got a massive boost for Catholicism not bringing this. But again like >> can you pause there? Like he says ridiculous.
¶130Like God punishing people eternally. Eternal suffering. That's ridic. >> Okay. So let let's just review.
¶131Okay. So, let's allow for the moment that Eucharistic miracles prove the real presence. Right now, it should be noted that the um Eastern Orthodox Church actually has in their official manuals of like what you're supposed to do when something goes wrong during communion. And one of the possibilities they cite is, you know, what if it, you know, what if you get blood? What if blood shows up, right?
¶132What if you get a eucharistic miracle? And the conclusion that the Eastern Orthodox Church draws from their eucharistic miracles is that this is bad people. like you know that basically that in a in an orth in a in an Eastern Orthodox understanding if you have a eukaristic miracle it happens because literally no one in the congregation believes in the real presence. So it's like God is like, "Okay, I got to come down here and show you guys what's going on, right? Or that there's like some other like natural disaster, political event, there is something bad is going to happen, right?
¶133So that by itself is going to explain why the Eastern Orthodox are not going to be publicizing eucharistic miracles because they think that it might be a bad thing. Um also you know again even if we are allowing for um eucharistic miracles proving that this is really Jesus all that gets you is it has to be some kind of Christianity that believes in the real presence. Well guess what that's all of the Orthodox churches. That's the Lutheran. That's the old Catholics.
¶134That's a whole that you that's the Anglicans. It does not refute my guy. This does not refute Protestantism. It just doesn't. >> And and I wanted to highlight like he's getting scared that oh no, Catholicism might be true.
¶135Like again again you see you see a kind of Pascal Sager fear, right? Oh no. It's like come on dude joke. Come on. Like you really think that you know these miracles would be like um um show like the tri omni god being like um so angry at like human beings that he's going to you know send people to eternal hell for that stuff.
¶136I mean, why not believe that it's some supernatural demonic figure or aliens than believing that a triom god would be like, "Yeah, I shall send vast majority of people to eternal hell and humanity." >> Yeah. And and and and again, it there there's no logical connection between Jesus is really present in the eukarist. Therefore, massad >> and and how do we know that it's even Jesus present in the ukarist, right? I mean, it's like even that is not like um like a totally clear explicit thing. You are pretty much inferring from from the you know the blood or like evidence that it is Jesus, right?
¶137You are still inferring, right? It's not like um it's as clear as seeing a Toyota Corolla on the street or something, right? >> Yeah. Okay, I'm I'm going to hit play again. >> Ridiculous.
¶138Like come on. Like like two gay people who seem to love each other, they can't like they can't get married like that. Like it's ridiculous. It seems ridiculous. Or you know, various other things just seemed ridiculous about the about the church.
¶139Um so like I can't get there like >> okay again he is saying this after Pope Francis was willing to say that civil partnerships for same-sex couples are something that should be legal, right? when study group nine, um, which is one of the study groups from the Senate and Cidality, came out with a report that included testimony from a Catholic from a Catholic man who is in a who who is legally married to another Catholic man, right? when it's possible for same-sex couples to go and get blessings and when there are people from, you know, all over the Catholic world that are saying, you know, maybe we should be re, you know, that maybe there's a way to make space for monogamous, you know, faithful, loving same-sex couples within the Catholic Church to, and this is the important part that I want everyone to realize, to engage in genital contact. Because from a Catholic point of view, there is no problem with two people of the same sex loving each other. The problem is with those two people having sexual relations.
¶140And right now as we are having this conversation, the Catholic Church is in the is in the process of renegotiating what it would look like to include Catholics who are in same-sex relationships to the point that the um German bishop's conference was wanted to put a like specific blessing for couples who love one another into the big book of blessings and got a little no no don't do that yet but didn't get in serious trouble right >> when when Pope Leo is getting up on an airplane and saying you know um sexual morality isn't the only kind of morality that matters right at the time when all of this is going on in the Catholic Church and Joe has just been raised in this environment of, you know, being gay is like the worst possible sin. So therefore, he has to find out a way he he's grabbing on to these miracles so he can be okay with that. And it's like you can be it's like he's saying this in a world where Father James Martin has a job working for the Vatican and is in charge of outreach, which is an organization aimed at helping gay Catholics to live a full life within the Catholic Church. >> Yeah. and and like the like look this should be huge that pope is blessing civil unions right it should be very huge given that um for for you know the the right-wing Catholics it's like blessing a sin right because uh or or at least encouraging sin or something right so >> it's it's like come on Joe like even even the Catholic church uh I I I I I I think of it as like uh the spirit of like development, spirit of progress.
¶141Um um um like whenever I describe progressive or left-wing Catholics like you, I say that like um okay, so these people have what I call um the spirit of development, right? They they want to progress um um and understandably progress, right? given like as you said right like um the there is a neglected past tradition of the Catholic Church right which is which is not as brutal as say um the the the Council of Florence type medieval Catholicism was. So it's like it's like like there is a genuine compassionate um um wing in the Catholic church, right? Uh so but but like Joe Joe decided to, you know, go on Matt Fred and like these sorts of channels instead of say um the more left-wing Catholic channels, right?
¶142Like James Martin or something. Um I mean and >> and and also like um Jordan he didn't talk to like Jordan Daniel Wood and these sorts of Catholics. He just went straight to Matt Fred Cameron Buzzi. >> Right. Well, or even um yeah, or even um Maxwell Kousma, for example, um is, you know, is probably the um you know, um is a tr is a transgender man who has a Catholic um channel that is, you know, very informative.
¶143If you're not I if you're watching this and you're not um watching Maxwell Kuzma like what are you even doing with your life? But the point is is that there you know the Catholic Church is large. >> Yeah. >> Large. >> He is, you know, and and has a range of opinions.
¶144So it's and and that's what's so interesting to me is that he's not looking he he he's not like the the way that I always think of it is is if the Catholic Church is the body of Christ that means that the Catholic Church is alive and part of being alive is growing and changing. >> Yeah. and not, you know, being this like, you know, bug that was frozen in amber in Pick Your Year. >> Yeah. That I love you for that.
¶145And what and and what's really interesting to me is that like traditional Catholics are very a are are hyper aware of the changes that are going on in terms of teaching on human sexuality right now and are constantly criticizing it and are constantly like you know oh well this is why you know Rome has fallen into apostasy and so on and so forth. >> Yeah. Um, and you know, and and actually some of those people also show up on pints with Aquinas, right? >> Exactly. Exactly.
¶146>> And then you have people like Joe who are just pretending that it's still 1985 and, you know, everybody who's gay is going to hell. >> Yeah. Like he's he's legitimizing these these right-wing uh trad basically, right? >> Yeah. Exactly.
¶147these like extremely right-wing Catholics and and really it comes down to the fact that that was the kind of Catholicism that Joe was raised with. >> Yeah. And you know in in in much the same way I think that you know Kevin Nontradicath will talk about how you know because he was raised um SSPX um you know he'll talk about you know going to a main Catholic church and it almost doesn't feel Catholic because it's so different from the kind of traditional Catholicism he was raised up he was raised in. >> Yeah. Um, and you know, and to some degree, you know, I I can sympathize with that.
¶148Um, but at the same time, it just tells you that, you know, when you think that there's only one way to be c but but that's really just what it comes down to for me is like that he is so convinced there is only one way to be Catholic and it's like there is not. There's just not. Okay, I'm I'm gonna hit play again. I was ranting for probably longer than I should have. >> And I was scared because I was like, I don't want to have to believe those things.
¶149And I don't want to have to change my life. Like my life would have to be like radically upend itself. Yeah, I mean I' I've been like a public critic as I said of Catholicism and Christianity for for a decade actually cuz like even going back before my channel. Uh I had like Instagram uh accounts where I would like systematically defend atheism, things like that. I had a blog which was initially called naturalistically inclined like the naturalist but then I changed it to Majesty of Reason.
¶150So like I have been a public critic. I'd have to like it's very humiliating to admit that you've been wrong the whole time. I'd have to admit to my parents that I've systematically deceived them. I'd know I'd have to just stop engaging in lots of behaviors that I really want to engage in, that I really like. Um, uh, that's difficult.
¶151It's a difficult ask. And especially intellectually, like the docsility, like I'm a free thinker. I'm like this. I'm I'm intellectually autonomous. I can think what I want.
¶152Uh, and you're asking me to be like docsel to the magisterium, like a teaching authority. Like this is this is ridiculous. you know like sabulva nothing in words like dare to know dare to question nothing in words um I mean ultimately that spirit took me to Catholicism >> but still it's a spirit that's sort of fundamentally at odds with a kind of >> and again religious submission of mind and will does not mean that the person is required to believe that everything the Catholic Church has taught or is currently teaching is correct. It means >> yeah it mean what religious submission of mind and will means is that the person is required to behave as though they believe that it's true right so >> you know so for example you know a gay Catholic couple might believe that them engaging in physical relations is not sinful. But religious submission of mind and will would still require them potentially to not have sex because they still have to behave as though they believe that teaching is true.
¶153>> Yeah. But Joe's understanding of this seems to be that the cath, you know, you know, the Catholic Church is true. Therefore, I just can turn off my brain and not worry about it. >> Yeah. And and like given his his his uh view of like submission to the magisterium, it's like there was a time when Catholic Church in was cool with slavery.
¶154The magisterium was cool with slavery. The majority view uh in the Catholic Church was like, "Yeah, slavery is cool." Now, of course, uh eventually the more and more uh I guess the the minority view of like say Gregory of Nissa, right, became more and more popular eventually. But the but >> but it's like come on. >> Yeah. Exactly.
¶155And and it's worth pointing out though that it wasn't ever that you you because you know Gregory of you know Gregory of Nissa was writing in the in the uh 4th century right? >> Yeah. >> And so you had within Catholicism for hundreds of years you had a debate. It was just that the anti-slavery position didn't win out until fairly recently, but it was still a live debate. And Joe is, you know, is just not willing to participate in that debate because ultimately he wants certainty, right?
¶156He wants there to be a clear right and a clear wrong. And he he he's just looking for certainty that once you engage authentically and honestly with Catholicism, you end up finding out that there's a lot less certainty than you thought there was. But that it also Catholicism is also really good at giving you a way to sit with that uncertainty and be uncomfortable and move a and work with that and through that and to find truth and to just not have to be certain all the time. At least that's the kind of Catholicism that I'm interested in. And I would argue that that's the kind of Catholicism that the Pope is interested in.
¶157>> Yeah. >> You know, uh >> and like he Joe has shared like he has OCD. Um and I should mention like um I have OCD clinically diagnosed. I was like hospitalized at one point because I had insomnia uh due to my anxiety. I couldn't sleep for like 36 hours um straight.
¶158>> Right. It was >> it's rough. >> It was very painful for me. So clinically diagnosed I'm on like certine max dose of certine 200 mg. Um and so the in the interesting thing was for me um the way I thought about eternal hell was like um I I sent my paper to Joe Schmid criticizing eternal hell basically saying that look if eternal hell is even a possibility um then there is there is a significant uh problem of radical skepticism which is like you would not be able to trust your god um if if there is this uh eternal hell thing that is lying in the background constantly like you just won't be able to do that.
¶159So, so it's like if he if he like he was reading Ethan news by that time. I wish he read my paper that I sent to him um before you know I I put it uh in like Phil papers archive um the moderators approved it. So I guess that's nice. Um but but yeah like it's uh it's this uh this view like I I so I talked with um Charles P um on my YouTube channel um and we were talking about this like this uh basic theme of my paper which is that look if you believe that God you deserve eternal torment right you deserve nothing from God, then why do you think that you deserve God's honesty towards you, right? Why do you think that you deserve God's truthfulness towards you?
¶160If you if you are like a depraved, worm, a scumbag, right? A worst of the worst entity like you deserve eternal suffering and it is only God's grace that is going to save you, right? Then why do you think why do you believe that you deserve God's full honesty towards you? >> Right. >> Right.
¶161Right. >> And and >> Yeah. >> Yeah. and and and that's really I I and I imagine you know if he if he does you know actually suffer like clinically from OCD that's one of those things where believing in hell is going to you know and and believing that the majority of people go to hell I can see why being very you know by being uncertain about your salvation is going to be something that's going to eat at someone. >> Yeah.
¶162Yeah. >> Really bad. And and how when Ethan was like, "Well, I can just give you miraculous evidence and solve all of your questions." It would have seemed very appealing to him. >> I'm going to hit play. >> Yeah.
¶163>> Childlike difference to Christ in the magisterium. >> So, like it took a radical intellectual reorientation to get to that stage. And I just I wasn't ready for that. And I also just wasn't ready for believing in hell, believing in all these moral doctrines and whatnot. So, so after Eucharistic Miracles and looking into that book and like talking with the skeptics and reading the skeptics, I've read them and typically what they focus on is these minor peripheral anomalies.
¶164They're like, "Well, what about in these cases that they tried DNA tests and the DNA didn't amplify?" H it's like, okay, the DNA didn't amplify, but I I have eyes. I can look at it and I can see that like in legit for instance, we have the pictures like that's not a bacterium. That's not a FL. Are you saying that that's a fugellum? Are you Are you saying that that's a fleellum?
¶165Because it's not. I have eyes. So like they don't explain the core data. I don't think >> he has eyes, but does he have trained eyes? >> You know, does he um you know, is he a microbiologist?
¶166>> Yeah. who sees who sees like the this stuff like almost every day or something, right? Who has experience in this stuff, right? >> Yeah. Well, and and you know, and and and it's, you know, worth pointing out that, you know, it it's very easy for people operating even slightly out of their area of expertise to um to to to make these kinds of errors, you know.
¶167I I mean, you know, like you know, fa um famously there was Nebraska Man, which was um somebody found a peckery tooth and peckery teeth look a lot like human teeth. Now, obviously once they got it to a scientist who looked at it, they were like, "No, this is clear. Sorry guys, it's not an early hominin. It's a peckery." But the fact of the matter was is that a dentist looked at it and was like, "It looks like it looks like a tooth to me." You know, people make mistakes. And to the extent that they do, it's just like, you know, the craziest frauds or conspiracies that happen across multiple continents, multiple people, like it's it's not it's not plausible.
¶168Um, so like I looked at that and they don't and like of course there are all sorts of humrum explanations why the DNA might not amplify. Like I don't know, the scientists themselves usually say that like it's because the tissues are too degraded for instance. Sometimes it was, you know, left in water, for instance, for like three years or something, which by the way, it's insane that you could have identifiable white blood cells after three years submerged in distilled water naturalistically inexplicable. Um, so they tended, the skeptics that is tended to focus on minor peripheral anomalies. And I was just seeing this crop up over and over again or they're like focusing on how Dr.
¶169Ricardo Castion Gomez has some weird views and other domains and whatnot, but it's like, dude, all he had to do here was like take a piece of a host, put it in a vial, and ship it off. like what do you say? So, I don't know. They're just trying to cast clouds of uncertainty and unknowing. And I was like, but you're not getting to the core data.
¶170And also, there are lots of reason we'll get to the hypnist model of divine activity. I think there are lots of reasons why God might sprinkle in these purple anomalies so that people can cling to them if they want. Um, so we'll get to that later. But even even at this stage, I'm just like, okay, Catholicism might be true. I'm really scared.
¶171I really don't want that to be true. Uh, that would be disastrous. I would really I actually kind of wanted Christianity to be true. This kind of universalist liberal Christianity. Um Christianity maybe now is like yeah 30 40% probable to me.
¶172Maybe Catholicism is like 1% 2% something like that. Even after the Eucharistic miracles um but that's a massive boost from 01 or something like now Catholicism. It's a live option >> and that isn't good for me. Um, so that's Eucharistic Miracles. And there's much more that can be said and that I say in my um, conversion video.
¶173>> Okay. Then I start reading this book by Adam Bllye. >> Okay. Tell me about this book. I don't know.
¶174>> So, it's a book called like the Catholic Guide to Miracles. >> Okay. >> So, Adam Blie, he uh has he does like deliverance ministry stuff, so he's done YouTube videos and whatnot. He's this very gentle soul, this totally unostentious individual. Um, and he seems like he wouldn't hurt a fly.
¶175Like he and he just really has a heart for people because like he's been he's been through as he says on his website like between like a thou like 2,000 exorcisms or something like that. He does deliverance ministry stuff. He was initially getting um he he got his I think uh degree in psychology. than he did. >> Um I just want to mention um deliverance ministry is something that exists connected to but not necessarily a part of um official Catholic exorcisms.
¶176Um, deliverance ministries are very often done by lay people or they'll be done by priests who either aren't exorcists or who um are like, okay, who or who are looking at cases that they don't believe meets the threshold to get approval for an exorcism. So, they're doing these extra prayers. Um, very often deliverance ministry is borrowing prayers and tropes and ideas that are coming from the um that are coming from um the charismatic movement. And um then so so again by seizing on this evidence and again it's like he's not going and reviewing things because he's decided that the fact that people can come up with interpretations of the data that say yeah this looks bogus to me isn't good enough because he would rather read Adam Bly's book which strips out anything that might cause you to doubt the miracle and just gives you the nice pretty wrapped up in a bow story substantial PhD work in psychology or psychiatry but then he just felt called to go to the deliverance ministry so he went he went down that route he's also done lots of work in like forensic criminal things and whatnot. Um, so he writes this book on a Catholic guide to miracles.
¶177Um, and so I read through it and whatnot and you know a lot of I don't know um I wasn't really convinced by a lot a lot of the stuff in there at the And I was still again really skeptical, but I got >> Okay, I I'm I'm going to move ahead just a little bit. Um because he's talking about a lot of the same poor evidence >> post that led me to talk with him. And then we just started having like like four hourong conversations in the evenings about miracles and like >> Okay, I may roll back just a little bit. Th this is now >> back and forth on all of my objections and whatnot. >> Now, now we're talking about Joe's relationship with Ethan Muse.
¶178And I think um somebody said in the chat that they don't think that he wants to believe this stuff. They think he feels pressured to. Um, I I think that this is one of those things where where I I I I agree that he had conflict about it, right? But I think that that pressure in um yeah, I I'm skipping the flying possessed people because that deser because that deserves its own thing. Um we'll we'll we'll come back to the miracle flames but um um th this in Joe's journey right and yeah I agree you know there was conflict on some level he didn't want to believe on some level he did and ultimately the wanting to believe was stronger than the not wanting to believe but um anyway I'm going to um hit play again because this is the point where now he's talking about his relationship with Ethan Muse and he'd make a point and I'd parry and he'd repost and then I'd rejoin and then you know we just go back and forth.
¶179Um and then you know we enjoyed talking with one another. Yeah, that was after his post. Um, so it must have been the found that that led me to talk with him. And then we just started having like like 4-hour long conversations in the evenings about miracles and my objections to Catholicism and various other things. Um, so >> uh that's where yeah that's where Ethan sort of comes in and then the next kind of stage in the journey.
¶180So now again let's let's take a step back when I meet Ethan Muse. I'm like this is probably before Adam Bllye and I'm kind of going through the Eucharistic miracles at this point and Catholicism still seems really implausible. Christianity is like you know 30 40ish% or something like that for me and theism yeah maybe like 70 80% likely to be true. Have you prayed yet? >> Yes.
¶181So actually for quite some time I have prayed prayers as an agnostic. Actually as far as I can remember I've prayed prayers and they've just been conditional prayers of the form. God if you exist please help me to come to know you and love you. It's like basically that's what I did because I think I mean listen >> pause there pause there because this is >> irrational for um >> okay >> his his prayer thing so like okay so as as he was agnostic he was praying that to come to know you and love you >> you know so come to know you I guess it's kind of understandable if you are like in a sad situation I I guess or or or like you see a lot of suffering in the world and knowing God would uh genuinely feel good but then come to love you. Hello.
¶182>> Is sorry. Um, >> yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Hello.
¶183>> Okay. Sorry about that. For some reason, >> you're not muted, Katie, I think. >> Okay. >> What's going on?
¶184>> Um, I'm streaming. >> Okay. Okay. Bye. Sorry, sorry about that.
¶185Um, I that was one of my kids. I just needed to make sure it wasn't an emergency and it wasn't. But anyway, I'm sorry. You you were saying about Joe the the the way that he was praying. >> Yeah.
¶186So, like to to to pray to God that I come to love you, right? Um, like when Joe converted to Catholicism, he was like, "Oh no, Catholicism might be true. That's not love." It's like, "Oh no, I saw my girlfriend." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And and also though at the same time, the fact that it's like, you know, God, I want to know you and love you.
¶187That is something that that that only makes sense if you are believing in a like very specific kind of a personal god. >> Yes. Exactly. Exactly. I I mean the there there are so many other ways of thinking about your religion, you know, in which you know you you you you could imagine a you know God that really doesn't care about people very much you know even you know even undermine like God as some kind of of a king who can you know um like like praying about look at these people who are suffering God please help them if you exist right >> right >> look at the genocide that's happening in Palestine help these ch children I hope these children go to heaven immediately right um right >> it's sort of like that prayer right um >> but but like I come to love you Exactly.
¶188It it's it's like it's and and that's why I say that on some level um I I think that he and and that's why my argument is that he wanted to believe. Right. >> Yeah. >> Because you don't pray that prayer >> unless you want to believe. >> Exactly.
¶189So let let's see what else he has to say. >> Agnostics and even atheists to uh to not pray conditional prayers. So like Matt, imagine that you are stranded in a forest, okay? And you've you've been there for a week. You need help, okay?
¶190And you're in a dire dire circumstances cuz you just ran out of food. Okay? So you're stranded in a forest and you've got a flare gun which basically allows you unlimited flares that you can shoot up. Doesn't take much effort. maybe takes just a few seconds to just shoot up a flare into the sky and it would alert anyone who's potentially looking for you.
¶191I mean, you know, you have friends and family who hopefully care about you. I mean, I I care about you, man. So, maybe I would be looking for you um at the very least. So, you know, you think maybe there are helicopters out there looking for me, maybe there are search crews on the ground looking for me. Um, in that case, I say even if you think there's like a 2% chance, a 1% chance, a 5% chance that there's someone out there looking for you when you're in this dire circumstances, you should shoot the player.
¶192It would be irrational not to shoot the flare when you're starving basically, right? Of course he would shoot the flare. Everyone would shoot the flare. Well, conditional prayers for an agnostic or atheist are shooting the flare. So, premise one, if you like, you should shoot the flare in that case that no one looking for you.
¶193>> Who put us in the dire circumstances in the first place, right? I mean, come on, man. It's like God like I would not shoot the flare if I know that the person who put me in that situation is the one who's looking for me. Yeah. >> And and and again, you know, that is um you know, assuming that you know, you you're also you're you're assuming a single God, right?
¶194You're assuming that this kind of conditional prayer is going to be acceptable to that God. you're assuming all you know there's like it's it it it truly it is assumptions all the way down. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> And I mean and and and as our um friend pointed out in the chat, you know, like also um you know, he's only he he's like God if you exist.
¶195this very specific conception of God, right? I mean, he didn't like, you know, he he didn't um you know, like reach out to Legba. Um he didn't say you know Krishna if you're true um I I don't know what kind of a miracle Krishna would do but you know um you know g give me a sign um he you know he there are so many religious possibilities that would not have been covered by that prayer >> yeah and and I mean look even in Christianity people don't just pray for like Oh, make me believe and make me love you. They they also pray for like give me strength to go through this pain. Um um please help me, right?
¶196I'm suffering right now. I need I need comfort. Um send someone, you know, I need friends in life, >> right? >> Please send someone or something. And I should >> Yeah, >> sorry.
¶197Go ahead. Go ahead. I was going to say and and apparently God answered his prayer by sending him Ethan Muse and and Matthew Lavia, right? Um and I mean it's so um another thing that I wanted to say was like so look if Joe believes in like such such an eternal hell kind of god another thing I would always think like uh you know there have been examples of such kinds of kings or emperors in the past who actually hated who hated obsequiousness right they hate people who were like bootlickers, right? Oh, I love you.
¶198I worship you. Yes, you are always right. Like m maybe God is such that like he's he's looking at these types of people to send to the worst kind of hell, right? I mean, could be such a god, right? Like who's like, if you pray more, I'm gonna mess you up more, boy.
¶199Don't don't cry, right? Like it's it's kind of like that kind of God like do not cry like um have like like there are there are kings who who respect someone who is able to stand up for themselves who is authentic, right? Who >> who authentically says says to God, um I never met you. You didn't answer my prayer. So go yourself.
¶200um like >> and and and that's what's actually really interesting to me is that like if you read you know some of the things that were written by like some of the great Catholic mystics I mean these were people who they would get angry with God right and they weren't afraid to doubt they weren't afraid to, you know, say, "God, why are you doing this? Why are you and the fact that, you know, Joe is just you, you know, again, he was like to like I I can recognize this this construction of God that he believes in because that's the one that I was raised with to a great degree. But it's also not the only way of thinking about God, relating to God that is available to him within his own religious tradition who might be willing to help you. Even if you're like 1% confident, you're 99% confident that there's no one out there who will help you. You should still shoot the flare because it's effortless and it has potent massively potential payoffs and the stakes are high.
¶201So, you should shoot the flare. Premise two. If you should shoot the the flare, then >> one additional thing. One additional thing I forgot. >> I wanted to say a small a small a small thing.
¶202I won't take much time. So, >> yeah. Yeah. So, he's like, "Shoot the flare. Shoot the flare." Even if even if it's like 98.9% true that um there's no one looking for but I mean what if someone is looking for you to shoot the flare but they their intentions are not to save you but to you know mess you up right like that's that's the only thing I wanted to say like even torture you more right >> right yeah well no and and and again like his whole idea of conditional prayer Pray is like is dependent on a whole bunch of suppositions about the nature of God.
¶203>> Yeah. Yeah. >> Conclusion. Agnostics and atheists should shoot up conditional praise to God because after all the stakes are dire. >> Yeah.
¶204>> The stakes are dire. You know, there may very well, according to you, like there, even if it's unlikely, even if it's 1% chance, 5% chance, there may very well be a God out there who's willing to help if you ask. So, just shoot the flare. It's effortless. Just wake up every day for 3 seconds and say it with honesty and sincerity.
¶205Say, "God, if you exist, help me to know you, love you, and serve you." Amen. Every day. Do it every day. >> So, also serve you. This this is the third thing that he said uh know you, love you and serve you, >> right?
¶206Know you, love you and serve you. That is a very specific prayer. And by the way, like people most sincerely pray usually when they are like in a state of actual suffering, right? And and when they need help of someone who is more powerful than them, right? Like and and like this this prayer of to know you, love you and serve you, serve you again presupposes that you can do something to serve such a god.
¶207Right. >> Right. Right. >> Who has infinite resources. >> Yeah.
¶208Exactly. Which again, you know, like there's nothing wrong with that prayer like in a Catholic context. >> Yeah. Yeah, >> but it shows that at least like where it counted, Joe never really left that Catholic mental context. >> Yeah, exactly.
¶209>> Because when he went looking for God, he found a Catholic God. >> Yeah. >> Right. which is fine, you know, and and also again, you know, a lot of um in in Catholicism, there's, you know, the classic saying, you know, lexarende lex credendi, the law of prayer is the law of belief. And part of you and part of the reason why like you know new prayers have to get get official approval to make sure that they don't contain a theological error or anything like that >> is because it's understood that if you are saying words over and over and over again that they're going to get into your head.
¶210So the fact that Joe had a regular prayer life, you know, that is yes, that's something that is going to affect you. And ultimately like just praying is going to lead you to believe just because you're praying regularly >> which you know which again which is fine if your goal is to >> come back to Catholicism right if your goal >> yeah you know if your goal is to believe in the Christian God. You know, if that's your goal is to believe in God, then Joe's prayer makes sense. But I'm not sure that it makes a whole lot of sense if you are not trying to convert, you know, or revert or return or however you want to think about it. >> Yeah.
¶211Yeah. is like so I I sometimes I I don't pray usually but I do rarely pray when I see suffering right like >> um please take care of these souls give them uh heal them you know >> give them peace these are sensitive vulnerable individuals who are dying or something um and like that's the kind of prayer right it's like compassion for the actually vulnerable Right. >> Rather than >> And that's and that's really the thing that strikes me the most about this kind of conservative Catholicism, right? >> Yeah. Yeah.
¶212is that except for like wanting to make abortion illegal, they really don't have a whole lot of compassion for anyone except their own soul and maybe the souls of their friends. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And it's like I don't know. I don't know.
¶213>> Yeah. It's all right. see where it takes you. It might take you to Matt Frat's studio. So >> So yeah, I haven't I had been praying conditional prayers.
¶214>> Gosh, I wish I was a fly on the wall listening to you and Ethan Muse talk for five hours. It must have been wild. I mean, typically to to be completely honest, uh, you know, as a mortification of my pride, it was >> a series of just me being utterly utterly intellectually mogged by Ethan Muse. Just like >> just like, yeah, massive mogging left and right and left and right and left and right. Like it's so hard to get a get a point on him.
¶215Um, and like, you know, you'd be like a fourth of the way through a >> gish gallop. >> Yeah. describing is because I I I I've I've watched Ethan Muse's content. I really have. >> And um like everything that he throws it, it's like it's this constant gish gallop where you know and as we are aware with you know the symmetry principle.
¶216>> Yeah. You know, I if somebody keeps throwing these things at you and you're like, "Well, what about this?" And crucially, neither Ethan or Joe would have understood the biology, would have understood the histography, right? They didn't have any of the tools necessary to evaluate these historical claims. >> Also, physics, physics and chemistry. >> Yeah.
¶217Yeah. Yeah. Or physics or they aren't even engineers because we all know that engineers are equipped by their training to understand all areas of human knowledge. you know >> and and interestingly you know as as I like uh got into you know this uh philos basically philosophy as a hobby one of the things that I learned um is that when people publish papers if they are published in respected journals that is better than published in like some fringe specific specialized journals. Right?
¶218Like like so so if Delore's paper you know the one of the major source of Ethan Muse if if his paper was published in nature physics right um or like science like the the name of the journal is science this is a hu that would be pretty huge but interestingly even then there is there's this um quote I heard from an academic which is that even if a paper, a new paper, cutting edge paper says something. Still wait, wait. See the back and forth, see the responses to that paper, you know, wait. Don't just, you know, just accelerate to, oh, that's right. That's it.
¶219It's over. Right. Well, and and and particularly um and and and particularly when you have a paper where it's like, you know, it it will be making claims about um some about you know, oh this is you know what whatever blood and it's like okay but it got published in a journal that's like dealing with like microscopes. Right? So, it's like, okay, the way that you prepared the slide is right because that's all that they cared about, right?
¶220Was was the slide prepared correctly or, you know, was there a very technical issue going on? Um, I I'm going to hit play and we'll see what else is to say in this next minute. >> Wait. And he's already seen like four steps of the dialectic ahead of you. So, he's already seen four steps of the He's like, "Yes, I know your objection." And then he articulates it to you like much more succinctly and clearly than you could have and it's even more forceful than you could have done it.
¶221And he even gets like to the heart of what you're saying. And then he's like, "Yeah, but that that that fails for at least four reasons." Then he systematically lists through those four reasons. You're like, "Oh gosh." Um, you're right. Um, oh man. >> So, wow.
¶222Praise God. >> I know. It's a grace. It's a grace. Unmmerited grace.
¶223>> Oh, come on. Let's rip the band-aid off. How did you How did you accept Catholicism? >> Well, okay. No, no, we got to get that.
¶224No, no. We got to get We're going to tear it back slowly. >> Yeah, we're going to slower. >> Yeah, it's going to hurt. >> It did hurt.
¶225>> I just can't wait to hear about when you prayed your first rosary. >> When I hear about a seeker or a protestant praying their first rosary, I'm like, "All right, set the timer. It's not long." >> No, no. Our lady will get you. Our the beautiful Theotokos are not uh neglect.
¶226So, um, >> again, when you have gotten to the point in your journey for Catholicism that you are praying the rosary, right? That you are spending like 15 minutes of your life praying the rosary, most of which involves specifically praying to the Virgin Mary. you are far enough along the road to Catholicism that you're committed, right? Um it's it's also very disappointing to see him like do this um like his methodology like oh Ethan Muse was like mogging me like um like so I give an objection and Ethan Muse would be like yeah I heard your objections here are like four reasons but like look that's not how investigation works like you have to you have to research more as in like not not just of course there is internet um but also like going out there talking to on ground um experts relevant to the specific field like is Ethan Muse like some interdisiplinary um prodigy or like a polymath god or something >> right and it's like yeah and and and again you know he's not a biology ologist. He's not an engineer.
¶227He's a graduate student in philosophy at Rutgers and he's doing the philosophy of computing and information systems. >> Yeah. >> It it's like basically that's the kind of thing where it's like he is trained in constructing arguments. He is not trained in evaluating evidence. >> Yeah.
¶228Exactly. >> The only thing that he can say is, "Have I stacked up enough proof?" Right. >> Yeah. >> Now, now we're moving on to um Padre Peio and his stigmata. >> Want to be Orthodox >> because I didn't want to be Catholic.
¶229>> But I mean, Orthodoxy condemns homosexual acts and teaches the existence of hell. people might say. >> Yeah, I was about to say um it depends. You could go in for a more liberal version of orthod orthodoxy where you're like you have universal salvation and um >> you could go in for a more liberal version of Catholicism >> also on the table. Yeah, the of course the difference is that you know um um I I would point out you know please um you know like share and subscribe to the channel because part of the reason and and is you know um there is not as much money to be made in liberal or even mainstream Catholicism not as much as >> that's absolutely correct.
¶230Yeah. You know >> that's a very important point. >> Yeah. I I mean and and to that degree like be because I you know do I think he's grifting? No.
¶231Do I think that he has figured out a do I think that he's aware of the economics of YouTube and is he aware that you know he is by coming back to the kind of conservative Catholicism that he was raised in that is still giving him access to a lot of influence, a lot of real tangible benefits, right, that he would not have if he was a Catholic who was arguing for no, as Catholics, we need to engage with critical scholarship. As Catholics, we need to be skeptical about miracle claims. Not because miracles are impossible, but because people will but because we don't want people to be deceived, right? >> Yeah. >> That is not where the m like believe me that is not where the that is not where the money is, right?
¶232>> The moral teachings and whatnot. I don't know. Um, >> also was the pope a stumbling block? >> No, not at all. And I mean again like I think Fatima kind of serves as a sort of indication of that.
¶233Um, so I don't know I I was listen I was toying around with this for like 30 minutes cuz I had thought of this stuff previously but I was like okay now that this is real I I have to become Christian. >> Um, we spent like the last maybe hour or 30 minutes of that interview just like talking through >> say interview. Is this >> No, not interview. Sorry. Like it's just like a conversation with Muse.
¶234Yeah. >> 30 minutes. >> Yeah. Yeah, the last 30 minutes to an hour just going over like my last remnants of trying to hold on to non-atholic explanations. Like I was already aware of lots of difficulties for various accommodationist models, for various demonic models.
¶235Um, and uh, Ethan was just like really hounding me on like, yeah, Matthew 16 and like uh, church history and like the early mono episcopacy and various reasons why like Protestantism probably is not it. Uh, and like all the the the Catholic vindicatory implications and like it would almost seem like betrayal if like the thing that's convincing me of Christianity is like distinctively Catholic miracles to then not become Catholic. M >> um so then I don't know it was the last remnants, the last fight, the last battle, the last like 30 to 60 minutes of that conversation. So after the conversation I was like, "Okay, I've got to be Christian. I'm leaning towards Catholicism." And then the next day I was like I was sort of basically snapped into my senses and I was like, "Okay, there aren't plausible alternative explanations of the data.
¶236I've got to become Catholic." So then uh looked up when the next confession time was. Okay. again and and now one thing that I want to highlight here is that he is very m and this I think is to some degree calculated right is that Joe again is a cradle Catholic was raised in a fairly conservative very devout Catholic family, but he is operating in a space where the biggest voices, the guys with the biggest um the guys with the biggest platform are all converts and Joe is presenting himself as a convert even though he was raised Catholic. Right? So for him, coming back to the Catholic Church just involved basically going to confession and then proceeding to go to mass.
¶237And he knew how to do that already because he hadn't actually stopped going to mass. He just only went to mass when he was at home with his parents, which is different than not going to mass. I don't go to mass as often as I should and I don't go to mass at all are two very different statements. >> And made a decade long confession on Saturday, I think February 7th. So on Friday, the night before, I did like a two or three hour examination of conscience and just made this huge document.
¶238And >> did you let the priest know that this was going to be long? >> Oh. Um, >> did you show up? >> No, I showed up and Yeah, I shouldn't have done that. I should have like scheduled one, but um, no, I showed up and it was going to be long and it was long and it was very difficult.
¶239>> Yeah. Um by the way according to people who I know who um have you know who are priests please if you think that you are going to be there for a really long time schedule the confession because they have a limited number of time there's a limited amount of time and that is a long line. >> Yeah. you know, you can go to confession multiple times and just confess, you know, and just kind of go through things one at a time. There are many ways to do this and Yeah.
¶240Um maybe don't be there. Yeah. And Yeah. Exactly. And then there's a um um Yeah.
¶241Um so somebody was asking us to discuss something in more detail and the um Oh yeah. Well, yeah, Joe had to go to confession. Yeah, exactly. He did have to go to confession, but he could have done it in a way that I don't know. Um, but people were asking us to go into something on more detail.
¶242But, um, I'm not sure the chat was moving kind of fast. So, if you can specify what your question is, please, that would be helpful. But for now, I'm >> But I don't know. It taught me a lot about myself. You know, I there was a lot under the hood.
¶243I was a lot worse than I thought I was. And >> wow. >> Um, >> yeah. But and it was difficult, you know, basically peeling back. >> I think I got what people about going into detail.
¶244>> Yeah, I think I got what people are saying about going into detail. So, they're talking about um Ethan was just really hounding me. Um that part um I think that's that's the stuff that they are telling us to go in detail. And I think yeah um even recently I think I just I was going to say on this about like so Joe was saying uh um a while ago that Ethan was also hounding Ethan was hounding him about history of the church too >> right and like he's not a historian and given his methodology um he's he's terrible at history terrible right Um he throws out critical Bible scholarship, calls it a fanfiction. He his his engagement with modern historioggraphy on Mormonism was like zero zero.
¶245>> Nothing. Um he just went to like primary source. But that's not how you do historioggraphy. That's not how you learn history. You learn history from historians, right?
¶246Not just not just going into primary sources because because analysis of primary source and all that stuff that's the work of historians not you >> not you right um and there's a reason for that there's a reason we have specialized fields uh and and there's a reason we trust those particular experts um and like Joy trusts the magisterium now uh in a in a significant way, right? But he he he couldn't, you know, go to a history department in Princeton University who who has who is like a church historian. Uh >> Right. >> Right. A and and again it was not you know I was and you know and for a lot of people it's like I you know I if you're at Princeton I mean why didn't he you know why didn't he you know I'm sure that they have classes on Christianity right I mean you know audit a um you know I I'm sure that somebody would have let him audit a you know class on church history or something like that you know or to read something that's not written by an apologist.
¶247>> Yeah. Exactly. And and like the so Job was also I think being threatened by like eternal hell threats >> right you know. >> Yeah. And and and for somebody who by his own account of these things struggles with anxiety, struggles with obsessive compulsive disorder, you know, yeah, >> struggles with scrupulosity to have someone in their lives who has, you know, and I'm just going to say it, Ethan has a very aggressive style of argument, right?
¶248and is very much into this very rigid, you know, you think it this way or you know, it's like a proposition is right or a proposition is wrong. And maybe you can give varying amounts of credence to a proposition, but at the end of your day, but at the end of the day, they're just not equipped to be evaluating this evidence. So the fact that he, you know, the fact that like Ethan is like, you know, come with me if you want to live. >> Yeah. >> And Joe is just like hopping in the car.
¶249Um, >> um, so you are more you are more polite to Ethan. I I just think he's he's a scumbag. I mean, I think he's a psychopath. I I don't I I I I don't um Yeah. I I I don't um think he's like like again I I don't think that he is going into this with ill intention.
¶250I >> Yeah. I mean Yeah. >> Yeah. I I mean I I think that you know again he is a very well but very narrowly educated person. >> Uh yeah so I I want to emphasize this look sincerity people can be sincere in all sorts of uh in with all sorts of ideologies.
¶251Um the terrorists in the ISIS can be sincere. uh Osama bin Laden was sincere. You know, the the the people who did 911 bombing and all these suicide bombing, they were like sincere. But the but the thing is like sincerity means jack if your goal is horrible, >> right? Well, it's well, it's it's like um um my friend Dapper Dinosaur on his channel, right, will say um you know, speaking about young Earth creationists, you know, it's like sincere, well-informed, honest, pick two.
¶252And >> Exactly. >> Yeah. And I and I'm pretty sure that you know Joe and Ethan have both picked sincere and honest they are not wellinformed and yeah >> they in spite of having all of the tools at their disposal to become wellinformed have chosen not to be wellinformed. Um I um I don't know about you, it's getting a kind of late for me. Um I do want to finish um just we we've got like another like three minutes on this particular clip.
¶253>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Do you want to finish that? And are you good to come back next week and keep digging through this pile?
¶254>> Yeah, sure. I mean, I also have like a presentation ready, but I wanted to present, but I thought, you know, maybe I guess next time I'll >> Well, I Well, I I'll I'll tell you what. We'll get through these next three minutes. Next week, we'll come back. You will do your presentation.
¶255Um I I'll play this little clip and then um >> I I'll play this little clip and then maybe you can just kind of tell people a little bit about Actually, no. Um, I need to run to the bathroom. So, I'm gonna go off of screen sharing. You can tell the people about what your presentation is going to be so that they'll know they have a good reason to come back and um I will be right back and we'll finish out this video. >> Yeah.
¶256>> So, um my my presentation or like PowerPoint um slides would be about um Rammanujan. Um he was a Hindu mathematician. Um and like I should mention I do not um believe in in miracles in like these demonic positions or or stuff like that. But I I'm I'm like humanian about this. um like my my view is like very probably God does not seem to interfere in the world even though I believe in God right but um it just seems like empirically God if ever intervenes it's like extremely extremely rare or maybe like totally psychological too uh maybe just in visions God shows up or something so I mean like I'm already not um any more cool with this u miracle hunting that Ethan Muse does.
¶257Uh and the the reason for for Rammanujan presenting the case of Rammanujin is to is to show how flawed Ethan Muse's methodology is. um to show how terrible his methodology is such that you can use uh you can use his methodology to uh get to Hinduism and in fact Rama the case of Rammanujan is very powerful precisely because he was considered by British SC British mathematicians during a racist time, you know, during the time when uh Indians and like black people were considered objectively dumber um and more like savage, right, than than um Christians um white people, right, at that time. And he like the British mathematicians G like Hardy GH Hardy he was a respected mathematician and a bunch of other uh you know mathematicians they were like this guy is just brilliant like and like bizarrely brilliant and interestingly uh Rammanujan's um I'm going to again say all this in presentation in a bit more detail but like right now I would just like briefly say that Rammanojan was uh like became much more famous in the late '9s because the stuff that he proposed is now being used in technology in like digital processing, digital signal processing in in ECG, in EEG, right? in medical instruments. Um, so it's in communications in RF, right?
¶258Telecommunications and stuff. So it's like his the the things and interestingly he was not a kind of a proof proof guy, right? Uh like who would derive very carefully from like a bunch of axoms, right? No, he had very good intuition, right? That he got to certain like he he he said some formulas or theorems just there but he did not prove them and and they were true.
¶259Most of them most of them were true overwhelming majority of them. And that's why Hardy was like this is weird. like where is he getting all this stuff from? >> Right. And and and his explanation spoilers was that this was being put into his brain by Lakshmi.
¶260>> Yeah. Lakshmi a form of Lakshmi. Nama namairi was sorry a a a very specific aspect of Lakshmi. >> Yeah. Specific aspect.
¶261>> Yeah. Now you know. Hi Tuco. Um, no I am not advocating for polytheism. What I am saying is that if you're using miracle evidence and it's possible to construct a miraculous argument for Hinduism that is just as good as a miraculous argument for Catholicism.
¶262That leaves you with one of two possibilities. One, both are true. Or that miracles are a really bad way to prove the truth or falsity of any kind of a religion. >> Yeah. >> Um, so I I'm going to go back into screen sharing because I I I do want to get this at least this I I had hoped we would get all the way through Pines with Aquinus, but we we but I I got too excited.
¶263So, um, we're going to just finish up the this last three minutes here. >> Least important thing about what you're saying. Did you just go in and say, "Hey, just I haven't been here in 10 years. This is going to be long." >> I said, "Yeah, I this is a like I said I had my last confession was a decade ago or something like that." That's what I said. And >> was he welcoming?
¶264>> Yeah. Oh, yeah. He was welcoming. Um, and he just he like just listened in. >> Wow.
¶265Um, how long did it take? >> I don't remember exactly. >> Oh, like maybe 45 minutes or something. Yeah. >> People loved you in line.
¶266>> I'm so sorry to people. >> No, they can go and confess if they judged you. >> Yeah. No. And then No, you know what that let me I was like whenever I'm in confession lines and now I'm going to be like, praise God that it was a long confession because it means like someone was returning to God, you know.
¶267>> Yeah. Yeah. So whiz, what was the phenomenological experience of having your sins forgiven and walking out and going about your day like? >> I mean, I don't know. It was it was just a new beginning.
¶268It was beautiful. It was peaceful, you know. >> It was like a a sense of kind of comfort and peace. Um, knowing that I'm a child of God and God loves me and that he's forgiven me of all my my decade of debauchery and decadence and depravity. How wonderful and merciful is God that it's that simple.
¶269>> It is that. >> Okay. Now th this is just something that I have to ask like how like like I have known philosophers and the philosophers that I have known the phrase decadence and debauchery um doesn't generally apply to them. like like they they they seem to be you know mostly people who are you know I idea of fun is you know a a nice night in with you know um w with with their um you know w with a with a good book on analytic philosophy. So, I mean, yeah.
¶270>> So, so, so like, you know, I mean, I'm not asking you to like describe Joe's personal like, you know, like to to put his personal life on blast, but how like roughly like how much decadence are we talking about here? like >> um like Joe was like extremely dedicated to studying philosophy um finding the truth like I mean that's just uh and like even in general like philosophers seem to be um you know not the types who are like um um say um someone who is doing um somewhat more um easier degree or easier diplom Yeah. >> And like has lots of time in their hands such that they are able to party every night or something, right? Um it's and and joy is like in in in like a Purdue University 4x4 GPA, right? Top student or something publishing papers.
¶271I'm like what the are you talking about? What debauchery or like what enjoyment did you even do? You didn't have any time to write or anything. >> It Yeah, it's just kind of like No, I mean, you know, I I mean, I I'm sure that you know, and I mean, you know, and I have to say, you know, I mean, you know, as weird as it makes me feel to say this because I'm old enough, I'm well old enough to be his mother, right? I mean, Joe's a nicel looking young man.
¶272He has a pleasant personality. I mean, I'm sure that if he wanted to, you know, find a willing partner to do dirty things with that he could find that person, right? But again, like you know, we are assuming decadence not in evidence. you know, just that's it. Just go in there, come out, done.
¶273In a way, I would imagine it might have been easier to kind of become a Protestant or an Orthodox just to go through some big ritual to make it feel appropriate to what you're going through internally. Do you know what I mean? >> And not that it wasn't a big deal confessing 10 years of sin, but >> yeah, you got to do >> it. Back back in union with the church. >> Yeah.
¶274And then back into the sacramental life of the church. Yeah. >> Did you just start going to Holy Mass or? Yeah. Started going to mass, started, you know, I mean, it was right before Lent, which is great.
¶275Um and uh >> yeah and I mean again the fact you and and I do have to say like you know from a you know effective emotional point of view like going to confession and believing that you know for a fact everything that you confessed has been forgiven. I mean that feels good, you know, that feels really good. And I'm sure that his um experience of, you know, of going through Lent, going through Holy Week was very powerful for him emotionally, right? >> And you know, and I don't want to downplay that, but at the same time, it's also he was setting himself. He like he knew what the calendar looked like, right?
¶276He knew that he was setting himself up to come back into the church at a point where he was going to have a really intense emotional experience. I don't Anyway, I'm just going to play this last minute. >> I definitely made that like a special end, you know. Um and yeah, just started then praying the rosary every day. And I mean even before then when I was like you know inching closer and closer I started maybe praying like a decade of the rosary a day on Ethan's advice which is like something that I would advise like all everyone who's listening to this like dude a decade takes two to three minutes the stakes are massive pray a decade of the rosary every day just like do it every single day two to three minutes and grace will flood your life and do it like honestly with sincerity you can even meditate on a mystery or something like that um but even if you don't believe it if you're Protestant right now.
¶277Please pause this and commit to praying a decade of the rosary every single day. >> Well, I think they've got to overcome prayers to the saints before they do that. >> Right. But that's why we went through all the evidence that prayers of the saints is efficacious and God has basically put a stamp of approval on it. Although I would say >> Yeah.
¶278And again, I it it's the like trying to convince people to engage in practices that only make sense internal to Catholicism is just like that's such a weird thing. Now, although I have to admit like part of me wants to suggest this as like just kind of a a psychological experiment. Like if you could get like 10 atheists to like pray the rosary like you know for a month and then see if they're still atheists like just as a control like you know just as a controlled experiment because you know you you could have like you know groups of atheists pray like you know Like you you could have like one group pray the rosary and one group um I don't know like um you know like do some kind of a Muslim you know like um you know do like you know like listen to um the Quran for five minutes and you could have you know and you could have um like one group of atheists like start praying the Lotus Sutra or whatever, right? I I mean, and see which whi which set of prayers is most effective. We could do a double blind study.
¶279It would be great, right? >> I would do if I if I get if I get paid for it. >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
¶280Yeah. Yeah. I I I mean, you know, there's a whole lot that you could do. >> Yeah. Yeah.
¶281you know, and like to that degree I think it's kind of fun, but it's also like Joe, like once you have built, you've gone to confession, you've built a Catholic prayer life, I mean, you know, going back was very easy for him because he was ready for it. And that's just kind of where I would like to close this part of it. Um anyway so um thank you everyone for coming and joining us on this journey. Um next week um we are going to first have R.J. do build his best miraculous case for Hinduism.
¶282>> Yeah. And um then um we'll go through and then if we have time we'll go through some more pints with Aquinus um hopefully finish that up and Council of Trent um sometime in the next month um Dr. Jay Bundy um um will be um who's an evolutionary biologist will be coming on and talking about some of the miracle claims and also about what science can and cannot teach us about the supernatural. And um this Sunday the 13th will be our normal nerd church read through the lectionary. And then on the 20th, in addition to our lectionary read through, Dr.
¶283M. M. David Litwa will be coming on to talk about the weaknesses in the way that Joe Schmid and Ethan Muse and similar people are reading the Bible. >> Um yeah. Um so it was great as always um having you on and then of course on Tuesday I will be talking about um Our Lady of Lassellet um which is one of the um Marian apparitions that is very familiar with traditional Catholics.
¶284Um, and uh, yeah, it'll be a good time.